Beyond the Lens: The Human Element in Photography with Ronan Ryle

Pat Miller: 00:00

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. It's all about the image. No. It's all about the client. The truth is probably somewhere in between. But it's pretty easy to become intoxicated with the magic of your own work. The wonder of me, the talent, the images I can capture. You believe that your opportunity to grow your business is just to get better at taking pictures. Today's conversation is a reminder that we are not in the business of just taking pictures. I mean, you don't need a business to take pictures and never sell them. That's a hobby. We're in the business of taking pictures and selling them. That's a business. Our guest today is Ronan Ryle, and he's fired up to remind you, it's not about the pictures, it's about the people. It's about how you make them feel. It's about really listening to their secret desires. It's about understanding why they're even in front of your lens today. If you're ready to grow the business, if you're ready to build relationships, if you're ready to change, this is the reminder you need. We'll be right back with Ronan Ryle. Ronan Ryle, welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast. How are you today?

Ronan Ryle: 01:32

Hey, Pat. It's great to be here. And thank you for having me. I am absolutely great.

Pat Miller: 01:36

This is gonna be fun. When we had the chance to talk before this episode, I thought, oh my goodness, this is gonna be a good one. It's not about the picture. It's about the people. Big concepts, something many of us forget. What do you mean by that?

Ronan Ryle: 01:51

Yeah, Pat. What I mean by it's not about the pictures, it's about the people is that often we think we're in the business of photography when in fact we're in the business of people. And I feel that our industry right now is at a crossroads. I think there's 3 megatrends right now colliding. The first one is the advancement of digital technology. The second one is that people live in 2 worlds. Right? They live in their online social media world and they live in the real world. And then on top of that path, we have what is a silent recession.

Pat Miller: 02:22

Silent recession. What do you mean?

Ronan Ryle: 02:24

So a silent recession is when their consumers start to reevaluate how they spend their money because they're under more pressure than before. Well, it's not been officially talked about by government or in the media yet. But as a Profit First Professional and in Difference Maker Revolution, you know, I see a lot of beneath the bonnets of a lot of photographers, and I talk to a lot of photographers every single day. And what they're telling me, Pat, is that people are spending less when they do come in, that people are they're finding it hard to get actually bookings in compared to this time last year. And for me, that means that the consumer is reevaluating what is true value. So that's what a silent recession is.

Pat Miller: 03:09

So with a silent recession and the emergence of technology and the multiple worlds and responsibilities that we all live in, If you're a photographer right now, that must feel a little bit unsettling. And you say you're talking to other photographers. That's what they're sharing with you that something's not right. This doesn't feel like the solid footing that we've been on for the past few years.

Ronan Ryle: 03:30

Absolutely. It's not. And, you know, when these 3 megatrends are colliding together, it's causing people just to reevaluate where is the value, where do they see the value. And I believe that the crossroads we're at as an industry is we have to choose. Do we continue to be the photographer's photographer? Or do we take a path of making a difference to our clients?

Pat Miller: 03:53

And that's the crux because we like to control what we can control. And one thing we can control is how good our images look rather than focusing on the client experience. Is that something we've learned over the years just to entertain and perform for one another to make sure that we look as good as everybody else? Or is that something where we're just trying to grasp onto the one thing we can control when the world seems to be spinning in a way that we're not used to?

Ronan Ryle: 04:21

Okay. I think it's all of that, Pat. But if you if you sit down, I don't believe that anybody just strategically sat down and say to photographers, look, it has to be all about the image and not about the people. I think it's sort of evolved over time. If we go back in time even if we go back just 3 decades back, if we consider at that time, you had to be a scientist to be a photographer. Right? You had to be able to not only control light to a great degree, but the equipment wasn't necessarily as good as it is today. And then you had to learn how to print and you had to develop your own prints and all that stuff. Right? So you were a scientist. But technology has moved on now to where nearly anybody can create a great photo. Right? And when I mean great photo, I mean in the eyes of the consumer. We as professional photographers will see stuff that the consumer never sees. But regardless of where technology has gone from analog to digital to the invention of the mobile phone that now has a camera in it, that's getting better and better and better to AI being put on top of that. Like, the technology is getting to a stage now where the value proposition that we can give as an industry can no longer be about the quality of the photography, about the art of the photography. It can no longer be about the products. You know, I see it all the time, you know. You this has value to the consumer because the paper it's printed on was made by elves in some forest somewhere. You know? That might have been something we could rely on in the past, but it's quickly evolving that it has to go beyond that.

Pat Miller: 05:56

But that is revolutionary. That is potentially scary to someone that focuses on composition and lighting and they're leaning into their technique and their talent of capturing a technically brilliant image. This transition, you're not saying it's coming. You're saying it's already here. And if you're not adapted to it, you're already behind. Is that right?

Ronan Ryle: 06:19

That's correct. That's correct. It's already here. And trends can take, you know, centuries. They can take decades. They can take years. They can take months. They can take days. But the one thing that's happening is that the way technology is evolving, like, this is just moving so quick. It's moving so fast. It's changing so fast. And if you think about something we talked about a little earlier about, you know, people having a digital identity. Right? Where often that one of the things they want to do is show their aspirational selves often. Right? If you think of what you can do now with your mobile phone and pull up to AI and what that aspirational self it can create for you, a lot of photographers present themselves as that solution. You're gone if that's what you present as your value proposition to a client.

Pat Miller: 07:09

I would imagine I'm not a photographer. You're not a photographer. My wife's a photographer. And I would imagine that the people that you're talking to are experiencing this. What do you mean you don't want that image? It's technically perfect. It's got a merit. This is a winner, and they don't care about that one. They care about this other one that maybe shows them in their aspirational self or makes them feel something that a technically perfect image may not have that experience is how this would present to someone trying to sell their images that they're really not connecting with the soul of the client that they're putting these technically perfect images in front of them?

Ronan Ryle: 07:45

Correct. And they often like, I see photographers and they have a standard routine of poses. Right? So regardless of who the client is, we're gonna do exactly the same stuff with them. We're gonna put them in the same position. We're gonna pose them the same way, and we think that's what it's about. Well, it's not about that at all. And the photographers who have become difference makers, if I could share a story with you, Pat. So I'm gonna share a story of Darren and Rhianne who, have made this transition to be a difference maker. And they have had a client called Amy. And a, in this particular instance, they were offering Amy a boudoir session. Right? And Amy booked in. And the day before the session, we had rang Amy just to say, looking forward to seeing you tomorrow. We're gonna have a great day, great experience. And Amy told her that she wanted to cancel, that she felt so bad in herself. She was lacking so much comms that she just couldn't go ahead. Well, Rhianne had another conversation with her and said, look, Amy, come on in. You're gonna have an amazing experience. You're gonna, you're going to gain that confidence that you feel you've lost. You're gonna discover that self you used to know before that you've lost. But at any stage, if you wanna stop, we'll stop. So Amy came in for an experience, had an amazing experience when she saw the photos that reflected her newfound confidence. She just bought her wall art displays and she bought her Folio box full of images and she went home. Right? Rhianne, like all good photographers and all good difference makers, was checking in with Amy 2 weeks later. So she rang Amy and she said, Rianne, how are you getting on? And Amy said, 'Rhianne, I need to tell you something.' She said, you know the day that you phoned me before the day of the experience? On that day she said, 'I want to let you know that I had no murres left in my home. I could not bring myself to look at myself in the mirror. And she said, last weekend, I went out and I bought a full-length mirror. But the story doesn't stop there, Pat. We rolled on 3 months later and Amy rang Rhianne this time and she said, Rhianne, I just want to let you know that because of the experience and the transformation you helped me achieve in this newfound confidence, not only did I start to love myself again, but I had the confidence to put myself out there to be loved again and I found a new man and I'm totally in love. Now when you think of that, if Darren and Rhianne were focused on everyone who comes in for a boudoir experience, we're not going to understand what do they secretly want, which is what she really wanted. She told Rhianne she wanted confidence, but what she really wanted was to be in a position where she couldn't love herself to be loved again. That's what she secretly wanted. So when you consider that, if Darren and Rhianne experiences about everyone through the same pose and it's all about the photography, right? The chances of that happening are not the same as when you're focused on what does this client truly want, what do they secretly desire, And how can I create an experience that creates work that every single day produces an end result for them? In Amy's case, that was to give her confidence every day.

Pat Miller: 10:37

If you're willing to take a step away from team technical and step towards this emotional connection with your clients, you said something really powerful, their secret desire, the thing that they really want out of the session. Talk us through how we discover that. How do we uncover the client's secret desire so we can have an amazing experience like the story you just shared?

Ronan Ryle: 11:00

Alright. So it starts part with, first of all, changing our focus that it's about the people. Right? And then acquiring skills that are about active listening. Right? So we have to actively listen to our client. But even before that, we've got to understand who our client is. Right? So I see all the time, Pat, where photographers spray and pray. Right? They think that everybody is their client. Right? And there's a saying, riches in the niches, and often people confuse the riches with money. For me, they're rich relationships. Right? So if we understand who our client is and who we want to serve, it allows us then to have conversations with that client with empathy and with intention of discovering where are they, what do they desire, what do they secretly want. Because often they'll tell us what they think we want to hear. Often they'll say, well, I need photographs of my dog. Right? While, really, there's something deeper there. So there's another difference-maker photographer who's a pet photographer, Pat, and, they had a client called Martha. And when they talked to Martha, Martha, like most people said, I need photographs of my dog, Rex. Right? But when they had their discovery call and they started to discover the secret desire, then they discovered that what she truly wanted was that even though Rex was from a rescue, right? That in fact Rex had rescued her and that she saw Rex more human than most humans. Right? She treated Rex as her fur baby, just like I would treat my son or one of my 3 daughters. That was the bond. That was the love that they had. But what she secretly desired was not only to capture that bond and love but that she had something where her extended family and friends could understand that bond for her because they didn't. Yeah. So when our work is about one discovering what that secret desire is and then delivering on that. That's when the world just opens up to us not in terms of the abundance of clients that are available but just how our clients see the value. It's no longer about the photo. It's about the difference that the photo makes them not just today, tomorrow, but forever.

Pat Miller: 13:23

It's a great point about narrowing the audience. Because if you do newborn photography and you've helped a bunch of newborn mothers, you'll pick up on their language that we're not taking a picture of your kid. We're stopping time. You've seen this movie before. So if we have the courage, I believe it's courage to focus on a more narrow target audience or product offering that will aid and assist us in becoming more aware and empathetic of our clients?

Ronan Ryle: 13:51

Absolutely. Absolutely. It does. And often I see photographers who understand this that they don't just stick to newborn as they have newborn. That we tend to we tend to see our ideal client avatar in ourselves. So in photographers say to me, well, where should I start in discovering who my ideal client is? Well, write about yourself. Because often, we interact with people better who are more like ourselves. So if we start there and we identify our ideal client avatar and let's say it is for newborn because that's our passion. Right? Well, then we can evolve with that client. Right? I see too many photographers niching too much down to per genre and we can actually niche our niche down per avatar and be their lifelong photographer.

Pat Miller: 14:36

Which would take them through multiple sessions over a decade and a half or longer because you've really connected with them. Now I wanna get to some more of the how so someone can get something out of the episode so they can do a better job of super-serving the client. But I just have to pull the emergency break for a second.

Ronan Ryle: 14:55

Okay.

Pat Miller: 14:56

Because right now someone's watching this and they're saying, Ronan, I love you. I'm not a psychologist. This is way too touchy-feely for me. If someone's saying that right now, how would you answer that question?

Ronan Ryle: 15:06

How I would answer that, Pat, is, there's such a thing as retail therapy. Right? We all accept that. And there's such a thing as people who are suicidal, who need professional help from a psychologist or psychiatrist. Right? I'm not saying we need to be that. Right?

Pat Miller: 15:22

Sure.

Ronan Ryle: 15:23

But I think there's an opportunity to deliver value that is more than retail therapy. And by just being focused on the client, understanding the client, and just being a friend to the client, and just discovering what they truly want. And you don't have to be a psychologist for that. We're not trying to cure people because often some photographers might think that. We're just trying to get them to see maybe what they've lost. So there's a great story around this, Pat, in terms of Scott who was a divorced dad. Right? And Scott had got to a position where he felt his 2 sons didn't love him anymore because of what had gone on in the marriage. So he had a conversation with a difference-maker photographer and Scott and his 2 sons came in for their experience. And when they went through that experience, they created an experience of reconnection for both Scott with his sons and his sons with Scott. But here's a key thing. One of the wall collections that Scott bought for his home, right? Was of the big photograph in the collection was a close-up of he holding his hands holding hands at one of his sons, right? Because they recounted the story of when was the first time they knew they'd always be there for each other and they loved each other. And that was when their son was younger. They used to go he used to go for a walk with his son every single day. And when they went out the gate of their home, their son used to tap his hand off Scott's leg, put his hand out, he would look down, and grab his son's hand. Right? And for them, that captured their bond forever, their love of each other forever, that they'll always be there for each other. So the photographer knew that by having the conversation. So there, what they photographed, the main image was that because they knew what that meant to Scott.

Pat Miller: 17:15

Let's get actionable now. Let's say you were having that conversation with the father and son. You're not leading the conversation with what kind of wall art do you want. You're leading the conversation with their relationship. Can you give us a few sample questions or some things that we can use to stoke the discussion to get us into these hidden desires and the things we need to identify?

Ronan Ryle: 17:36

Sure. So if we take that it starts with market which are marketing first. Right? So a lot of photographers will use proactive digital marketing. Right? So let's take Facebook advertising as an example. Right? So when you write marketing that connects with your ideal client, right? And they see themselves in there and say this person gets me, right? That's the first step. The second step then is we always teach that you ask a why compelling question in that. So why is now the right time for your photographic experience? Right? And people will, you know, give you one-word answers. People will tell you tell you their life story in that question. Right? So that's the start that's the start of the conversation. So whatever they tell you in that, that's how you can start the conversation with them.

Pat Miller: 18:23

That's a great question. Why is now the right time? Write that down. Put it on your wall. Do not forget it because you're right. They'll give you that transformational decision-making moment. They could have booked a photography session with you anytime, but they decided to do it right now, before they go to college, before they, you know, whatever it might be. That's that's really brilliant.

Ronan Ryle: 18:45

And that's a great point, Pat, because often, as photographers, we think there has to be a life-changing event for it to happen, right? But it doesn't have to be that way. And that's the power of proactive marketing that, you know, people are blissfully unaware that this opportunity is even there. Right? Because they're programmed over generations like photographers to think photography is about the photo. If I want a photo, I need to go to a photographer. Right? So it's up to us with our marketing to position our messaging to stand out from that to say, this is not about photography. We don't say that straight outright? but when they wield it, they say this is more than photography. Right? So then they say, oh, I see myself in that. Ad copy and they fill out your form.

Pat Miller: 19:27

Just like learning a new camera, playing with a new lens, playing with new software. When you're doing something for the first time, it's gonna feel uncomfortable. How do we find the confidence to go after that emotion? Because trying a new technique on a client or doing a lighting trick that you know will work, that seems to come more naturally. But if someone's not already doing this empathetic point of view to understand the secret desire, it's gonna feel a little awkward when you do it for the first time. So how can you push someone to jump out of the plane and actually do it?

Ronan Ryle: 19:58

Sure. And I understand that fear. Right? I understand that fear, but that's making it about ourselves as the photographer. In the same way as much of what we do makes it about photography. But if we think about it's about our client and we know that everybody wants just to be seen, heard, and understood, and we have a conversation as a friend and we build that trust and we create that safe place for them to have that conversation. It's just like you talk to a friend, see your client as your best friend. You Now, how would you talk to them?

Pat Miller: 20:30

But that money part gets in the way. In our head, if we're not already doing this, they're not a friend, they're a client. And really changing that paradigm that we're not looking at them as a credit card in a transaction. We're looking at them as a friend we haven't made yet. And that is a totally different discussion and a totally different way of thinking about it if, and I say if, you're not already doing this because many photographers are already doing this. High-five if you're already doing this. But if you're not already doing this, looking at them as a friend you haven't made yet, that seems to change the way you email them, the way that you take their pictures, the way that you greet them, the way that you sell them. This could really breathe energy into someone's business, wouldn't it?

Ronan Ryle: 21:16

Oh, it absolutely does. It changes everything because, you know, I'm a big fan of Simon Sinek. I know you're a big fan of Simon Sinek, you know. And Simon Sinek teaches us that what's your why, what's your purpose. What difference are you going to make to people? Because when you make that difference, the result will look after itself which is the financial piece. So often, Pat, I see people even choosing, you know, I'm gonna photograph dogs because someone told me there's loads of money to be made in them. I'm gonna photograph high school seniors because somebody told me there's loads of money. But why do you want to photograph high school seniors? What is it about photographing high school seniors that you believe is really important? And then taking that then and translating that for the clients then to for them to understand why this is important and why it needs to be done. And once you open the pricing aperture, right? Within your business and you make that difference, right? You make that difference, The clients will open their wallets. I promise you. They'll open their wallets and they'll spend with joy and gratitude. You know, like I talk to difference-maker photographers who they'll tell you that their clients, you know, after they've spent 1,000 with them, stand up and give them a hug and thank them because they're craving this, Pat. They're in a they're in a world where on social media, you know, that that people spend so much time on social media they're actually sad. Social media actually gives them an initial dopamine hit. Right? And they crave that over and over and over again. But then they get to a stage where they're lonely and they're sad and they wanna be seen and they wanna be heard and they wanna be understood or they want to reconnect with a partner or, you know, they want to regain their confidence. They wanna celebrate something. Whatever that is, when we discover that, that's when they crave what you can give them.

Pat Miller: 23:10

Okay. I'm having some conflict here that I need you to explain.

Ronan Ryle: 23:15

Sure.

Pat Miller: 23:16

This show, the educational mission of PPA, everything we're doing is saying it's a business. It's a business. It's a business quit taking pretty pictures, go make some money. And to do that, that means you gotta go out and sell stuff. So it's natural for us to say, where are the opportunities? But what you're presenting is look for the opportunities inside your reason for being your passion, your why. And this whole episode is it's not about the image. It's about the client. Yet we're saying it's about you going to the client. Do you see how this is? I understand it, but I wanna hear you explain it because that sounds like a conflict that needs to be navigated. So can you navigate that one more time? Because I just wanna hear you explain that seemingly, conflicting message.

Ronan Ryle: 24:01

Sure. So if money is your motivator, it's not going to last very long. It's actually going to put pressure on you. So we all have a purpose and a passion for something, right? And for some people. We just have to figure out what that is. So, you know, I discovered this many, many years ago from a personal experience and often if you look into your personal life, Pat, you'll see it. But my personal story is that I have 1 son and 3 daughters and my second daughter, Freya, when she was 14, she was being bullied in school. And she got to a stage where she was self-harming, she was an attempted suicide. Luckily she's still with us today and she's got through all those dark days and she's getting married next year and she's in a happy relationship, she has her home and all turned out great, right? So we were lucky, right? But when I analyze that and look at that and see that and I looked in my own home and I said Freya had no confidence to stand up to her bully and I'm convinced that because I've seen it with other teenagers like Freya since with Difference Maker Photographers, that if she had that confidence that she would have been able to stand up to her body. So that's why I linked into what I do today. So I have a number of businesses where clients are photographers, right? Where I've engineered our business over the last 6 years, we're a small business of just shy of 40 people, and but I've engineered our business so that I don't have to run our businesses day to day so that I can have photographers. So my Freya's gift was what my 'why' is, which is to have photographers to realize that it's not about photography on its own. Yes, we need to take great photographs, right? But it's not about that, it's about what we can do where our photography work and our experience makes it different to people. So everybody has within them their own 'why' and their purpose based on what is it that truly drives you because money is a poor motivator. However, I mentioned a little bit earlier, Pat, in terms of, you know, we can make all the difference in the world but if you don't have our pricing aperture open people will just spend with us what we ask them, right? So we do have to have our we make a difference. We open our pricing aperture and then our clients spend up to the new value we have them reach.

Pat Miller: 26:18

I can ask you a 1,000 more questions, but I just wanna thank you for sharing that story. I appreciate your why and I'm glad to hear that she's doing better, which is great. And I appreciate you sharing that.

Ronan Ryle: 26:28

She's great. But we all have that and it's all within us. We all have had our ups and our downs as Simon Zing teaches us, you know. And when you discover that and what it's truly about and it's not about money, it's about making a difference, you know, the money will actually come. Well, come. I've seen it so often. But if you make it about the money it's a poor motivator. Your clients smell your desperation. They see your desperation if you make it about the money and it takes your mindset away from concentrating on what your client needs to being focused on yourself. And then you start to tell yourself stories like, oh my clients don't value me or my work. You're right if you make it about you. You're right if you make it about you because it can't be about you. It has to be about the value you deliver to your client and that's the same in any industry, right? That's not just in for photographers. That's the same in anything. If we don't deliver value, then our clients will walk or won't come in in the first place.

Pat Miller: 27:24

The premise of this episode, it's not about the picture, it's about the people, is a world is flat kind of revelation. This is something that I have not heard talked about enough. How come photographers aren't having this conversation every minute of every day?

Ronan Ryle: 27:39

I think Pat that often photographers are in their own echo chamber, you know, and that all of our friends are photographers and there's nothing wrong with that, right? But then all we hear and see and feel is it's about the quality of the photograph or look at my new lighting technique or look at my new lens or And we get into that echo chamber of thinking and believing that it's all about the photograph. And the thing here Pat is at one stage it was. You know, if we go back 40 years ago when you couldn't have a photo unless I went to a professional photographer as a scientist, it was somewhat about more about the science and about the photography, right? But it was really about the person, but we got away with the value proposition being about the art and science, right? But now we can't do that. And I think it's a bit like, well if we think about it, let's just look, right? Where are Nokia today, right? Nokia missed the smartphone revolution, right? Where are Kodak today? Kodak invented the digital camera, invented a digital camera, and yet they chose to ignore it. Where are they today? We have if we think about the blacksmiths, let's go back a bit further, right? When the Model T Ford came out, right? And I'm sure there was blacksmiths who saw the Model T Ford and says 'ah that car thing will never take on it, there's no way that's gonna take on' Right? And I'm sure there's some blacksmiths who saw it and said, okay, yes, this is a threat to what I currently do, but it's also an opportunity to with an open mindset to learn something new and I'm sure many of them became mechanics. So I think often we don't see and this is not just within our industry, right? We even see if we look at the the FTSE 100 today versus the number who are on the FTSE 100 in 1990, 60% of them are gone. So it doesn't just happen small businesses like photography, it's just the way life evolves is that even though humans, you know, we adapt quickly, often we don't adapt until we're forced. And what I'm saying is let's not wait to be forced. Let's see what's happening in the industry. You're seeing it already. If you're hearing as a photographer and you're worried that your clients don't value you, then you're making it about yourself. If you find it more difficult to get your clients to come in for an experience, for clients to spend money with you, it's already there. It's happening. But it's because of these mega trends that are evolving and are happening, and we have to adapt.

Pat Miller: 30:07

I just wanna pause for a second. This may be the only photography interview that's happening right now where the guest is saying, we have to adapt. Things are changing. And they're not talking about technology. They're talking about people. This is really unique, but it's foundational in the way that you're looking at it. And it's something I think everybody listens to needs to listen to because every other conversation like this is, oh, AI and technology and all of this stuff. And you acknowledged at the start that that's part of this mix that's going on at the moment. But I love the fact that you're making sure that we focus on this existential need that people have at this moment to be heard and to be valued. And when you think about what a photographer does in general, it helps people see themselves in a way that they can't be seen otherwise. The smartphone doesn't take a picture to capture the real way that you look. It doesn't capture the emotion if you're taking a selfie. There's a lot of power in helping someone see themselves and it's desperately needed right now.

Ronan Ryle: 31:04

Absolutely. And if you think, if you think of Scott's story, you know, when he sees that display on his wall of what that work means, it triggers in him every single day as to what's important to him, you know. And you can't do that with a smartphone photo, you know. It's not going to have that because it's not just about the photo, it's about creating the experience for somebody to have that transformation, to understand what's important, to get from here to there. It's all centered around the whole experience with whatever emotion you help your client to achieve, that the work that's on display in their home is a trigger for that emotion every single day.

Pat Miller: 31:47

In a moment, we're gonna talk about what can we do to get better at this. But before we do, I'm just curious. In your experience, is this an old dog, new tricks kind of thing where maybe younger or newer photographers might gravitate to this message faster than folks that have been in the industry for a while?

Ronan Ryle: 32:02

Absolutely. And it's when you're in the industry for a while, you know, first of all, there's a fear of change, right? We all have that. We have a fear of change. The second thing then is we've got to unlearn a lot to relearn for this. And then thirdly then, you know, it takes time just to unlearn habits to learn new habits. So, somebody who's coming into industry who's starting afresh, it's going to be easier because you have less to unlearn. But if we if no matter where we are in our career unless we're near retirement, like this is coming faster and faster and faster. They see some of the business models that photographers use and their sales tactics. Like they're hard sales tactics. This is not about hard sales tactics. This is about bringing value to your clients where they, as I said before, that they will open their wallets and thank you for spending money with you.

Pat Miller: 32:55

Let's leave by empowering people. If you want to dive into this idea of super-serving the client, really understanding their needs, finding that secret transformation, let's talk books, classes, videos. How can we sharpen our skills to get better at this?

Ronan Ryle: 33:09

Alright. We've already talked about Simon Sinek. So, you know, read Simon Sinek's book Find My Why and you can come and join the Difference Maker revolution. So as I said earlier this for us is not about money, right? And this is about helping photographers to understand what's important and make that transition. But you do have to go through that step of unlearning and understanding the mindset of a Difference Maker. So at the Difference Maker Revolution we have free training, It's not free because it's not a value and a lot of people don't attach value to free. It's free because it is a revolution and we can't put a paywall around it. So we want you to come in and understand the principles of being a difference maker. Understand in the training around culling and cropping how when we cull and crop to make a difference. It's completely different how you would do that if you're entering a print award. Completely different. So you can come in, understand the principles of a difference maker, look at that cropping and culling training that Steve Saporito, my colleague delivers, And it will if you're like dealer photographers who are doing this, it'll blow your mind. Then at that stage, you could say this is for me. Right? Then you can choose to take your next step with the Difference Maker Revolution.

Pat Miller: 34:24

Appreciate you sharing that. With the last word, I want you to coach us up so we can go out and take the field and actually care about the people, not just the picture. Give us that 30-second speech, that motivation, that fire that we need to embrace this. Lay it on us so we understand just how important this is the last word of the interview.

Ronan Ryle: 34:43

Alright. Well, It's gonna be just a simple line. AI can't hug your clients. You go hug your clients.

Pat Miller: 34:51

Huh. Do you have a T-shirt with that yet? AI can't hug your clients. Is there a T-shirt for that? Because I want one.

Ronan Ryle: 34:57

I'm not sure. Maybe we should create one.

Pat Miller: 35:00

Yeah. Let's whip that up for imaging. I want to wear one of those. I think that's tremendous. Ronan Ryle, a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thank you for joining us today.

Ronan Ryle: 35:09

Thank you for having me, Pat. It's my pleasure.

Pat Miller: 35:11

Thank you to Ronan Ryle, and thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of the Professional Photographer Podcast. I'm already fired up for our next conversation. Before you go, can I ask a favor? I hope so because I'm gonna ask for one. If you enjoyed the show, subscribe. Wherever you're listening or viewing this podcast, subscribe and leave us a comment. Your feedback will help us ensure we're bringing you the content you need and that you love. And if you're not yet a member of Professional Photographers of America, man, you're missing out. PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers like you who are serious about growing their business in a sustainable and profitable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about your membership atppa.com. That's ppa.com. I'm Pat Miller, founder of the small business owners community. Thank you for joining us on our journey. We appreciate the support, and we'll be back soon with more tools to help you build your business with The Professional Photographer Podcast.