Creative Play Close Up with AB+DM

Pat Miller: 00:00

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. Okay. We're gonna talk about creative play, and we have to keep talking about it on this show. Now, this show is about helping you build a better photography business. But as I hang around the best of the best, they keep on telling me that creative play is absolutely critical. This isn't some hobbyist running off in the corner to make pretty pictures. It's about testing yourself and working when things break and trying new concepts and collaborating with other creatives. All of that raises what you're capable of. And on today's show, AB+DM Studios, Ahmad Barber and Donté Maurice, they're here to spill their secrets about how they do it. Now these two are fashion photographers at the highest level. They're doing magazine covers, celebrities you've heard of, amazing work together. They've been doing it since the pandemic. We'll hear their origin story. We'll also talk about creative play and how they fit it in to their ultra busy schedule. But they also have a lot to say about creative play and the balance of being a professional, how to handle things when things go wrong, and how creative play can get you ready for it. You're going to learn something on this episode, plus these two guys are just so cool. We're gonna bring Ahmad and Donté onto the show in just one moment. Ahmad and Donté, AB+DM Studio. Welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast. How are you guys today?

Ahmad Barber: 01:33

Pretty good.

Donté Maurice: 01:34

Really good.

Ahmad Barber: 01:34

I can't complain.

Pat Miller: 01:35

Yeah. We're at home today. We're traveling. Donté, I think you said you're on the road. You're at your parents in Philadelphia?

Donté Maurice: 01:41

Well, so I'm at my parents' house in Georgia, but as you know, Philly's won the Super Bowl. So it's a Philly decked out house. We're all born in Philly.

Pat Miller: 01:49

Oh, man. It must have been great watching them go all the way this year.

Donté Maurice: 01:52

Yeah. The house was full of fireworks. I would just say that.

Pat Miller: 01:56

I think America's glad because you beat the Chiefs. It was time for them to lose, I think. So fantastic. Well, if someone hasn't caught up with you two yet, have not seen your work, I mean, they're missing something, Ahmad, how would you introduce AB+DM Studios to people so they can get up to speed with what you two do?

Ahmad Barber: 02:14

I would say, "Hi, my name is Ahmad Barber. I am one half of AB+DM Studio. We are a fashion photography duo. We specialize in really creating images that feature a lot of shape and color, and we do it from a lens of interjecting a lot of fashion, a lot of intentionality, and generally just bringing people together and trying to build community in the photography space."

Pat Miller: 02:37

Donté, how do you two get started to work together? I've heard a little bit of your backstory, but I'd love to hear the whole thing.

Donté Maurice: 02:42

Yeah. So initially, we started as just, like, friends. So just supporting each other at each other's photo shoots. So I will be his first assistant. He will be my first assistant. And it got to a point where it was just like, we're more comfortable together than we are apart. You know? Even if we didn't have anything to do at the specific shoot, we would just be there as, like, moral support. So we just decided, like, I trust you. You trust me. How about we do this thing together? Because around that time, there were not many other duos that we've seen. And so we just like, you know, let's try it out. Let's see. We did our first photo shoot, and it went perfectly. And then we just kept on doing it until we really had to just, like, bite the bullet and say, okay. Let's just put down our own personal work, and let's elevate AB+DM. And have it written history from there.

Pat Miller: 03:25

Now, I'm sure you're asked this all the time, but I gotta ask. Ahmad, what does Donté bring to the table for you? What puzzle piece does he bring to you? And we're gonna switch the tables. For Donté as well. But, Ahmad, like you two formed, and now you're greater than the sum of your parts because he helps you with what?

Ahmad Barber: 03:41

So I think it's evolved over time. Donté has always been an amazing portrait photographer. His aesthetic was always lending itself for more intimate moments and really bringing people in. And that wasn't something that I was, you know, the best at. That wasn't my focus. So that was his first thing. When we first, you know, got together, that was definitely a part of, you know, what Donté was always good at. How we work together now, Donté is, the person who thinks about color. He's the person who does a lot of the initial creative exploration. He's our movement director. He's our movement coach on set. So I think those are definitely the top level of things. But invaluable, he's a brother. You know, he brings to the table being literally my partner in this and, you know, someone that I've grown to love beyond us not being, you know, blood relatives. So, you know, there's also an invaluable piece that he brings to the table on that end as well.

Pat Miller: 04:34

Yeah. Alright. Donté, your turn. What does Ahmad bring to the table? Come on. Let's go.

Donté Maurice: 04:38

No. Yeah. I will honestly say the same thing. It's kinda like my other half now. It's like, if you cut off one arm, that's how it feels like when we're not working together, when we're not there together, even in the same spaces together. And so even think about a photo shoot, it's like if Ahmad is the heart to everything that kinda connects everything, I'll be the blood. So, like, you can't have one without the other. And so it's like he said, it's always evolved over the years to where, you know, one may have been like I may have been the best at portraits. He was the best at, like, full body fashion shots. Now things have kinda evolved to where we've taken on each other's skills. And so we really work as, like, one mind now at this point.

Pat Miller: 05:16

That's cool. I wanna dig into how you two do creative play because it's something that I'm hearing from the high-level photographers over and over, how important it is to follow your curiosity and find ways to improve your skills, but also stay sharp. So, Donté, let's start with you. Like, how do you fit creative play into your schedule? Because you're shooting magazine covers and celebrities and all these amazing fashion shoots. How do you find work to take time for yourselves for creative play?

Donté Maurice: 05:44

It's really hard sometimes to balance those two things out. I think it's we've been blessed to be in a situation where our creative play gets to actually happen in the actual shoots now. And that came with a lot of what I would say, serving. So we had to put ourselves on the back burner a lot of times for the shoots that we're doing starting out, and we were okay with that. You know? And now we've gotten to the point where the magazines and the clients that we work with and the muses and the talents that we work with actually trust us and our ideas because we were able to listen to them first and like, help elevate their ideas. So now they're like, okay. Well, we trust you now. Like, what do you wanna do? What are you thinking? And so now our creative play actually happens on set. Our creative play happens with the actual talent, which is more pressure. You know? Because you're just like, okay. I hope this turns out right because we've never done this before or haven't done this idea before or even thought it out in this way to, like okay. Now, what does this idea look like with somebody like Ariana Grande or with somebody like Lizzo? Okay. Well, let's find out.

Pat Miller: 06:41

How do you find that level of talent when you're doing something creative? Like, do you find that–they're creative geniuses themselves, are they willing to play ball knowing that you two are getting creative, Ahmad? Is that what you find?

Ahmad Barber: 06:52

Well, no. It's great to have the opportunity to create at the level that we do. And so we go into it with the intention to collaborate with everyone. And so, definitely some people come to the table and come to set with the intention to do the same. Some people do not like photo shoots at all and would rather not be there. And then some people have a creep completely different vision from you, and you're meeting them for the first time, and they have no idea what idea you have planned for the day or anything like that. So we go into it for sure with the idea to collaborate, bring everybody into our world, or meet them where they are so we can have this convergence. But there's definitely times where people are not willing to play ball. They're not willing to do anything out of their comfort zone. They would rather just actually not have the photo shoot at all. So, like Donté mentioned, we have to kind of find the sweet spot on where we can create a play with our clients and with the talent that we're working with.

Pat Miller: 07:50

Okay. That's how it's gonna be. I guess we're just gonna make the doughnuts, friends. Smile, like, let them get through it. Right? They know what they wanna look like.

Ahmad Barber: 07:57

Yeah, we do give everybody the opportunity to play, and like, you know, we try to bring the ideas to their world or down to their comfortability. Generally, when somebody comes to set, the first thing that we're doing is meeting with them and going over the board as if they maybe have not seen it. And, you know, by the time the talent has arrived to set, we've probably looked at the wardrobe. We have some ideas around set design and lighting and things like that. So we're pitching to them on the spot. Like, here's our ideas. Here's what we wanna do. And we're getting their pulse check in that moment to for them to be like, "Yeah. Love it. I'm down for everything. Or I do not care. Let's just get this over with." Or we're getting, "I don't like any of this," and we have to sometimes, on the spot, shift our ideas and do what we have to do to execute the shoot.

Pat Miller: 08:46

Donté, doesn't this come down to client communication? Even for folks that are just starting out or aren't shooting celebrities, they kinda have to, like you just explained, Ahmad, you've gotta develop that skill of client communication. So they might not be taking pictures of Ariana Grande, but they're taking pictures of a client that's just as important to them right in front of them. Is that kinda how you made your talent to be able to communicate with people in real time like that?

Donté Maurice: 09:11

Yes. Like, we just realized that no matter what, we're in the service industry. So it's all about soft skills. It's all about listening to people. It's also about, like, not listening to respond, but actually, like, listening to listen, you know, and truthfully doing it and also being okay with somebody having different ideas and being willing to work with other people's ideas. And also, like, finding a way to, if somebody has a different idea than yours, but you trust your vision of how you would like to do it, infusing your idea just a little bit in there to where it still works. Our job is to help people shine, and we want them to trust us that we can do that, but we also wanna make sure that sometimes trust has to be built. And we're okay with building that trust and doing what we have to do to make sure that they feel safe in our hands so that later on they trust us completely. You sometimes have to play the long game.

Ahmad Barber: 09:59

I would go a lot further and say, you know, this is a hot take. That's what being a professional photographer is. You know, a lot of people, you know, sometimes feel like being a professional is all about having your idea seen or what you want, you know, be the final thing, and that is really not a lot of what being a professional photographer is. Communication is 99% of our work. We have to communicate our ideas. We have to communicate logistics. We have to communicate, like, what we need to do our job. All of these things, and it's like, even beyond that, interpersonal skills on times where we're getting bad attitudes, we're getting the short end of the stick, or whatever you may have, we still have to communicate through those things to get the job done, as a professional. And so it's like, you know, I would say the communication aspect is such a huge part of who we are and working at any level. It's really what's gonna push you ahead is if you're an effective communicator.

Pat Miller: 10:58

Let's go behind the scenes a little bit. Because if someone's watching this and they wanna have a session go as great as some of yours do, you shared with me, Donté, that it's about due diligence, about doing the work ahead of time. So then you can veer from what you've prepared for because you've put in the work. So, can you describe the kind of due diligence that you two do before you show up on set?

Donté Maurice: 11:18

Well, the one of the first things that we do is pray because you never know how a set will go. And so for us, like prayer; it kinda sets us up for the day. That way, we know, like, okay. What we do already, we already dedicated to God. You know? So we wanna make sure that whatever we do, we do it with a spirit of excellence. We do it with joy. We do it with peace. We do it with love. We do it with all of those things. So that's how we really set ourselves up for the day. And as we go, we always like to run through the mood board with each other just to make sure that we got it mentally so that no matter who anybody runs up to, somebody may meet Ahmad first or they may meet me first. We both gotta be saying the same thing. You know, we gotta make sure that we're on the same page because before it is a collaboration with everybody else. It's still a collaboration between Ahmad and I as well. So we wanna make sure that we're both on equal footing. We're equally yoked. And then from there, like I said, shoots sometimes can go to a whole different direction than you plan. It really just happened recently, but you just gotta be, alright, how do we adjust the plan to what is going on now?

Ahmad Barber: 12:14

I mean, I think a part of it is eliminating the possible problems that will arise. And so, like, we get a brief. A client reaches out for a shoot. We get their initial idea, whatever we're trying to execute that day. We go into creative direction. The fun part is it's two minds. So we're looking at a creative idea from two perspectives that are also meeting in the middle. So a lot of times, Donté will start that process of just literally throwing paint at the wall of all of the possibilities, and then I'll come in to not change the idea, but I'm looking at it from a client perspective sometimes on, what do we see on this page that will create more problems than we want or not communicating the vision or anything like that? And then because we have the, I guess, interesting career journey that we got our big break during COVID, where we were on set by ourselves and had to kinda somewhat produce shoots by ourselves and represent the client and things like that, we also have to think about it from that lens. And so a lot of times when we are developing decks and developing the way to pitch the client, our ideas, we're also thinking about, is this a realistic thing? We're, you know, thinking about timing. We're thinking about the location. We're taking that into consideration. How we produce our gear lists and things like that, we produce in a way where we have, we like to call it, like, our tool of tricks, so to speak. So we have a main lighting formula that we want to produce or approach, but then we have little other things that just in case something changes, just in case we need a extra cherry on top or a little sprinkle here, we have these other things that if budget allows, we can have on set to really as Donté mentioned, if a whole shoot changes, we have enough to change it in that way. And then because we, you know, not to say unlike other photographers, but because we touch every single stage of our shoots, you know, we're involved in pre production. We're involved in our gear list. We're involved in a lot of the planning. We also do majority of our own retouching. We're able to think about and approach a shoot knowing how we can polish the shoot at the end and what we can do, and the aftermath as well. So, when we think about the due diligence aspect, we are looking at it from a 360 lens. Again, not to say that other people don't, but we are intentional about making sure that we are approaching shoots knowing how can we eliminate as many problems as possible before we get to set or even having them after set so that we can literally just create. When we get to set, it's mostly about connecting with the talent and creating great images. We don't wanna have any, you know, variables beyond that.

Pat Miller: 14:48

Now I'm gonna take my next creative play question just set it to the side because it's a good one. You gave me a good one I'm gonna ask you, but I gotta hear, Donté, what was the big break during COVID? You can't just drop, "Oh, yeah. We got our big break during COVID, anyway, creative." No. Now I gotta hear the story. Tell me the story.

Donté Maurice: 15:05

So it started off with a shoot that happened December of 2019. I was blessed to get my first cover with Billboard magazine, and it was like City Girls, and I got to work with a stylist named Law Roach. And around that time, like, AB+DM was formed, but it wasn't, like, official. And so Ahmad worked as, like my Digitec for that shoot. And so we met with the whole team. The shoot went well. Everything came out. But then, literally, the shoot came out in January. The pandemic happened, shut everything down for like, four or five months. And so we're just like, okay. Well, what I thought was gonna be a big break ended up just fizzled out. So I was like, shoot. Okay. Well, here we are. And so then out of nowhere, Law Roach saw I was on that shoot ended up calling me and said, "Hey, would you like to do a photo shoot with Zendaya? And so in my head, I was like, oh, man. This is nuts. But then I got the thought. I was like, oh, well, I do photography with my brother now. We're a duo. Can we do it together? He was like, yeah. Like, I have to repitch y'all, but sure. And so we just sent him a whole, like, thing of work. We just combined both of our portfolios, put them together, and sent it to him. It got approved. And our first big shoot even coming into the industry as AB+DM was Zendaya for InStyle when it was a September issue, which is, like, a big thing in the fashion space.

Pat Miller: 16:23

So humble beginnings. She was your first client. No big, you know?

Donté Maurice: 16:27

And it was like, wow. We kinda got thrown into the shark tank with this when there was so much. We were shooting in Malibu for the first time by the water. We didn't realize how windy Malibu could get. We have scrims and all of these things working with the team for the first time. Like, there was so much work on location for the first time. It was a lot of first that shoot. So it was like, by the grace of God, we're able to succeed and work with them many times after that too because of that shoot.

Pat Miller: 16:55

Yeah. Alright. Let's ask. Thank you for telling the story. I had to hear the story. Just say we've got a great story and then not tell it. Alright. Let's keep talking about creative play because you get the brief. And when you two are going back and forth of, we're gonna have this person, and you're kind of doing that due diligence, what do we wanna bring to the table? Is that when creative play pays off? Because you can say, "Oh, Ahmad, we should do the thing with the lights that we did, or what if we do this with the thing?" Is that where you get your bag of tricks to bring to the session?

Donté Maurice: 17:21

Yes. I think it's been great to get into a place where we can reference ourselves and feel comfortable with it. You know? So, okay. Like, we've known that we've done this and it worked. Obviously, people are different. Their faces are different. How they catch light will be different. How they even catch color will be different. But it's like, okay, now we know if we have to adjust from these, like, little trenches that we have, we can adjust and build from a world from right there.

Ahmad Barber: 17:44

I would say, like, for sure, that's exactly where it starts. But I would say, like, a part of our creative play is always inserting what–it's kinda like a two-fold question. You know, what is it that will continue the AB+DM aesthetic or the AB+DM vision within this shoot, but then how can we evolve it and elevate it? And so when we think about what that creative play is, a lot of time, it's like, is there a risk or something new that we're gonna try during the shoot that we maybe haven't done before? Or is it something that this talent hasn't done before that we're gonna ask them to do and risk them not being comfortable or risk them feeling like it's not their brand or even for the magazine or the client that we're working with, like, okay, they usually are a magazine that doesn't like black and white. So are we gonna try to sneak a black and white in or, you know, things like that? So that creative play comes in where we're trying to figure out a way to take a step forward while also continuing along the path that we are doing and having that consistency.

Pat Miller: 18:42

Ahmad, how pronounced is the aesthetic? How purposeful are you about this body of work? This is what we have to say. We wanna be known for this. Is it clearly pronounced? And when you're shooting, are you thinking about putting that into the pantheon of all of your work?

Ahmad Barber: 18:57

So I'll answer the question like this. It's the language that we speak. So it's not something that we consciously think about. It's the natural instinctive approach that we already have. We have a particular formula for lighting that we generally like to take. We have a general post-production formula. We have a coloring formula that we already take. If you would ask me this question or Donté this question because he was very against answering this with a yes a few years ago, we probably would have said no. We don't have a very particular approach. But I think now we are aware that we have a very particular approach and aesthetic, that showcases in multiple arenas and multiple ways and multiple styles of shoots, but there's a simple through line of color, shape, certain lighting styles, a certain way that lighting hits the skin. We like highlights. We like luminosity. Because we research our work, we're researching from a consistent eye and a consistent perspective. So it's not something that we stop and think about, but it is definitely through and prevalent within how we approach a shoot.

Pat Miller: 20:01

But isn't that the way it's supposed to be, Donté? This is what we have to say. This is us being us. We're not putting on some style we're trying to achieve. You're going through your heart and your curiosity.

Donté Maurice: 20:11

Yes. Exactly.

Pat Miller: 20:13

Let's talk about inspiration. Donté, I'll give this one to you. Where do you find the inspiration to be curious to go do creative play? What gets you fired up and makes you feel like you're ready to pick up a camera and go create?

Donté Maurice: 20:24

Oh, man. Such a beautiful question. I kinda find inspiration anywhere. You know? I'm also a music artist, so finding even inspiration on watching music videos and even hearing voices and hearing people's tones. As a visual artist and as, like, an audio artist, right? When I hear tones, I can also see colors and different things like that. So just, like, seeing color pairings and how those things work is amazing. And then being able to, like, go to museums and look at books and even, like, studying the OGs of photography. So we have, like, Matt Marcus. We have Steven Meisel. We have Nick Knight. We have Peter Lindbergh. We have all of these photographers who have so much greatness to pull from. And we're doing such amazing things today, and even, like, in their prime, that we're able to, like, pull inspiration from and see. And I think too, like, one of the bigger people that we've been looking at more recently too, that we haven't been able to pull into our work as Gordon Parks and just how he was able just to capture things and how he was a great documentary photographer and how even some of his portraits, how much depth and even in the black and white and the tones, how he approached his work is also a big source of inspiration for us as well. And Ahmad is an avid collector of coffee table books. And so we pull inspiration from even, like, those physical sources, order magazines, all of those things.

Pat Miller: 21:42

Ahmad, does an avid collector mean I have a problem with coffee table books? Because sometimes that's where it goes.

Ahmad Barber: 21:48

No. I'm gonna say I have a problem with coffee table books. A method to the bat. That's for sure.

Pat Miller: 21:53

Yeah. Ahmad, I'll ask you. Do you show up to a shoot differently if it's in Austin or Atlanta? Does geography play into the inspiration for a shoot?

Ahmad Barber: 22:03

No. I think, like, we are used to not shooting at home most of the time. So, you know, I would say the only difference is we are able to maybe sleep in a little bit when we're at home, and we can drive ourselves to shoot down to set that day. But in general, we have the same approach and the same, I guess, process. We generally wake up on shoot day. We arrive with some transportation. We pray on the way to our shoots, and then we get there, depending on if we have assistance or not. We, you know, debrief, or it's us debriefing with each other, and then we go into setting up. So that happens either if we're on the road or at home. It's just maybe we are down the street from our apartments or not.

Pat Miller: 22:49

I think you two have a huge unfair advantage. Unfair in a good way. But unfair advantage to almost everyone that's watching this episode because the vast majority of them, they run their own studio and they are alone. But even you two, Donté, I've heard you say how important community is to you, and you have a little bit of community because you've at least got a partner to turn to. But still, even both of you get the support of friends and other photographers. How important is that?

Donté Maurice: 23:16

It's very important because we love, like, when people ask those questions and we're able to help them out. And, you know, we try to do even our due diligence on answering some of the questions that people may even send to our DMs when we catch them. And even when it comes to, like, even our friends a lot of times, our production is in Atlanta, our friends that are coming to help out, that's like, I don't really produce anymore, but, like, I'm just gonna do it for you guys because I love you guys. So whatever project, no matter how big or small, $0 or $100,000, like, I'm happy to be a part to help. And so one of the things that we've learned, even working in the community, the people that have brought us on to help us, help champion us, we always say push it forward. You know, push it forward. Whatever you do, you know, help somebody, help the next person out. And so that's how we wanted to, like, that's really what we wanted to do in our career, help push people forward. We've helped talk to even the people that we're with agents with have helped them try to get them on board for the agency as well. So like, there's different things that we try to do to help push the community forward.

Ahmad Barber: 24:11

I would extend that to say, like, you know, we look at community in a few different ways. You know, before we were working with bigger teams, we were still working with teams at home. We have hairstylist friends, set designer friends, stylist friends, makeup friends, whatever you may have. And those were our communities. Those were the people that we could call on a day before a shoot and say, hey, can you help me? Those are the people that we also were collaborating and dreaming with before all of this and everything. But I think even beyond that, online, we try to promote the companionship between photographers. You know, we don't want to promote a crab in the barrel mentality where you can't share lighting setups or you can't share resources. You can't tell people how to do something. And, you know, there's this fear that because you're sharing this information, other people are gonna take jobs or money from you. There's so much opportunity out here for everyone to do exactly what they are meant to do. And I think what there isn't a lot of is the equity of making sure that people know how to do things. We are super aware that we're blessed to work at a level that not a lot of people are able to work at. And so, you know, to give access to this, you know, behind the scenes aspect of working at this level, we also wanna make sure that other people are able to work at that level, you know, with a little bit more knowledge, with a little bit more resources, and things like that. So that's where our community kind of stems from. It's like we're also this is something that we were doing before "anyone knew about AB+DM." We were just creating community and fun with our friends. That's where most of our initial portfolio came from. And so now, that's still is the same. It's just now that our friends are a little different. You know, we have the again opportunity to build repertoire. I don't know the word. We're building a relationship with talent in some ways where we're able to work with them time and time again, or magazines working with them time and time again. So they're our community as well because we're creating that relationship with them.

Donté Maurice: 26:14

I think even now and so there's moments where we even help assist our friends at photo shoots. So we just show up just being assistant for them. It's like, why not?

Pat Miller: 26:22

Yeah. It's a beautiful sentiment about helping people no matter what. And I love how that expands the community. And you're right. It doesn't take away from anyone. In fact, I was talking with a high-profile photographer at Imaging USA, and she said, I purposely have creative play days with someone who does something completely out of my genre. So I can learn how they do what they do. They can learn what I do. Does that ever happen where you're collaborating with a stylist or a fashion designer or you mentioned talent or magazines, people that are outside of your zone that help reignite a little bit of creativity for you?

Ahmad Barber: 26:56

Yeah. Most of the people, honestly, I'll say this happens a lot on the client side. We're working with people who, one, we're working with a lot of commercial spaces that don't have any reference for fashion, let's say. And so we're coming to this idea with knowing, okay, we need this on set, or we're bringing this to set. But they're also trying to train us on, like, okay. I know this fine art reference. I know this, you know, classic art reference or anything like that. So we get a lot of that with creative directors, photo editors, even stylists and makeup artists and things like that because they're coming from way different perspectives, maybe niches within their genre, but their reference point for how to approach the image or approach the shoot is completely different from us. We've had very straightforward ideas with some clients. People will come to set like, oh, I saw this Renaissance statue. Oh, I know about this painter. Oh, I know about this musician who did this on tour. And we're like, I've never seen that tour a day in my life or, you know, here's this hair history reference or anything like that. So it happens more often than we think, but it's also sometimes just embedded in the language that people speak.

Pat Miller: 28:05

Is that understanding, like, you have to understand their vision almost? Like, when they share that with you, it's the ability for you to go, "Oh, they're speaking Spanish, or, oh, this person's speaking German. Like, I know what their perspective is." Then you too, when you're doing your due diligence, you can figure it out. Is that a simple way to understand what you mean?

Ahmad Barber: 28:22

For sure. That goes back to that professional photographers need to understand how to communicate. Because early on, we would sometimes take things in one way, but the person was meaning it in another way. Like, we would take them giving ideas as saying that they don't like our ideas, or we would take them trying to shift the conversation one way as we're doing something bad. Whereas, really, everyone's coming to the table with their own fresh ideas with the interest of inserting their vision into the shoot. Like you said, the language their creative language is different. Some people may like, let's say, if I say the word modern, that is a different reference point for everyone. If I say creative or avant garde or haute couture or anything, Like, those have very specific reference points for everyone, and that's not always the same for everyone. And so we have to learn that early on, like, okay, we hear what you're saying. Can you give us a visual reference of what you're saying? Can you deepen your articulation in that so that we can be very clear of what you're saying? Even if you're saying, in a different way than we have understanding.

Pat Miller: 29:24

For sure. We're running out of time. You've covered so much that I wanted to cover. But I do wanna see if you can help the folks that are watching, that are maybe a one-person shop. They're doing enough work. They've got the lights on, but they're looking to grow. And I want to see if we can maybe prescribe a creative play ritual or sequence or schedule for them. So Donté, I'll start with you. When I ask you that question, someone's a solo photographer. They're trying to build their studio. If you were coaching them, what would you prescribe? What would you tell them about the embrace of creative play so they can expand their vision and be more creative?

Donté Maurice: 30:00

Study, study, study. Get your hand on any book. Find any type of website that has an old editorial. I always feel like it's better to get inspired by some of the things that they did in the past. Just like study, study, study. When I was first getting into photography, even doing solo, I just studied. I just stared at photos. I had it like, I waited until, like, the photos, like, kinda deep ingrained into my brain, and then I would just go and figure it out and shoot it. You know? I was trying to figure out, like, okay. They did this shoot in with natural light. Okay. How can I emulate this feeling? Like, this photo made me feel this. How can I do, how can I create this same feeling with my own work? And so I always literally just study. I would study the emotion in the photos. I would study, like, how the light is falling. I would study tones. I would study how they tone and color tone the image, how they color treated. Like, I would just to be so enamored in photography. I would say, number one, just study, study, study to the point where you fall in love and you wanna recreate not just the image, but you wanna recreate the feeling that you felt when you've seen that photo.

Pat Miller: 31:05

Studying books, I hear that there are plenty available at Ahmad's house. So, Ahmad, if we want some books, you've got that. But what else should we be doing to improve our creative play?

Ahmad Barber: 31:15

So, not to get too philosophical, I think the first thing is to abandon the idea of a ritual or religion or anything like that. Those things usually represent doing the same thing over and over again and expecting some form of a different result sometimes. And so we have a philosophy that consistency is not the same thing as monotony. You know, doing something in a consistent way is great, but there's always gonna be room for change and evolution within that process to help you grow two different levels. That's the goal; is not to spin your wheels and do the same thing and only be at one level or only be with one type of client or only approach a shoot from one way. Now, there is a foundation that you have to set, and that's where that studying definitely comes in to play where you can lay a foundation, a very sound foundation, to know that you can handle multiple things being thrown at you. But there's also a level of growth and evolution that you have to embrace so that you can get to the next level, so that you can do something new, so that you can get a different type of job. So I would say the first thing would be to, for sure, not prescribe to any of those things that are gonna allow you or make you feel that you're gonna stick into doing the same thing over and over again. But definitely embrace the idea of keeping a sound foundation at every level so that you can grow with your business and grow with the type of clients that you expect to have.

Pat Miller: 32:37

If we went back through this interview for themes, you've mentioned it. You both mentioned it a few times. Creativity is great, but it's almost as if it's a yin and yang with uncertainty and professionalism that you can be as creative as you want. But if you can't communicate and handle it when things go wrong, the creativity goes out the window. I mean, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, Ahmad, but does that sound right? This is a business.

Ahmad Barber: 32:58

So we must understand that there is a choice to invest. This is a business, and the client has a choice to invest in your business, and choose you as the resource to create an image. And you can be the best creative in the world. You can be the most amazing photographer. But if you don't understand the other nuances to approach this as a business with communication, with understanding how to be pro "professional" or understanding how to have a great process or all of the things, you won't get to the level that you wanna get to. You will be this undiscovered gem that creates these amazing images. But if you're not great to work with, if you don't know how to really navigate the business side of this thing, it's gonna be very tough. It's not to say that, you know, the Lord does amazing things. It's not to say that you won't get an opportunity to be this amazing person. But there's still a management of being a good steward of the opportunities that you have. And so in order to do that, you have to be a great business mind in this thing as well.

Donté Maurice: 34:02

And I also heard one of the most legendary photographers say what makes a great photographer is not taking great photos, but being a great problem solver. So that helps out a lot, especially with jobs and clients and in creative play. Because if something doesn't hit the same as you thought it would, you gotta adjust quickly.

Ahmad Barber: 34:20

I mean, and I'll say, like, one, just not to, you know, delay us or extend this too much, but it's like, there's been many of times where Donté and I have arrived to set with the intentions to have an amazing photo shoot. And we get problems that truly knock us off our rocker. You know, like, we have amazing shoots. I won't say which shoot it is because I don't wanna talk about people. But, you know, there are times where we've planned for two weeks. We did all of the decks. We've done all the set design. We've done the lighting and gear lists. We've briefed the client. We've briefed the assistance, and all of the things. The client, the talent, gets to set and pretty much says, "I don't wanna do this. Here's the concept I wanna do." And in that moment, if we weren't professionals, we would have said, "Well, this is the vision I wanna do. You know, this is the creation that I wanna do." And is that gonna get you to, you know, creating a great image? Probably not. Are you there to respond or problem solve in that moment? Literally seconds, you know, to think about, okay, I am being told that the pre-light that we have been doing for four hours, the two to three weeks of pre-production that we've done, all has to get thrown out the window. And the question is, what are you gonna do next quickly? And so, like, yeah, we have to be able to be professional in that moment, not take it personal, not have an ego, be humble, all of the things, while also having to create a great image. And so, yeah, we can be great creatives, but in that moment, our creativity doesn't necessarily win us the shoot. Like, we have to have all of those other assets to help us win that shoot in that moment.

Pat Miller: 35:56

Such a great conversation. You two helped a whole bunch of people. AB+DM, such a pleasure to have you on The Professional Photographer Podcast. Thanks for coming on.

Ahmad Barber: 36:03

Thank you for having us.

Pat Miller: 36:06

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of The Professional Photographer Podcast. I'm already looking forward to the next time you hit play. But before you go, give us the thumbs up, click the subscribe button, and leave us a comment. That way, Ahmad and Donté know what they said that really impacted you. I doubt I impacted you, but if you that'll make me feel better if I said something that impact–whatever. Put it in the comments and let us know that you watched and listened to the show. It also helps us as we plan shows going forward because if we see a bunch of comments on this show, we'll think, man, we gotta get AB+DM back on the air. It's kinda how we do it. So it helps us know what's resonating with you. The other thing is if you're not a member of Professional Photographers of America yet, I don't know what to tell you. You're missing it. PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in a sustainable and profitable way. Hello? Profitable? At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership at ppa.com. That's ppa.com. I'm Pat Miller, Founder of the Small Business Owners Community. Thanks for joining us on this journey. We'll see you right here next time. Take care.