Fix Your Price List with Sheryl Bashore

Pat Miller: 00:00

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. On this episode, we're gonna talk about something that freaks many out, pricing. You take a picture, you try and sell it to someone. How much should you charge? There are a lot of theories out there, there are a lot of ways you can go about it. You can put them in packages, you can just sell the digitals, you can offer coupons, You can double your heart costs. You can do all of these things. Many times, we're just guessing. We're doing what we think we should do. We're thinking what the market might be able to bear. But what if, what if, we could bring someone on who coaches people on their pricing for a living? And what if this person isn't a phony? They've actually lived this journey. They've gone from charging nothing to charging what they charge now. They've made all the mistakes along the way, and now they coach others on how to fix their price list. Sound good? Like, what if you could raise your rates? What if you were making fatal flaws in your business and you didn't even know? On this episode, Sheryl Bayshore is going to look at your price list. No, for real. The scientists at PPA have figured out how she can look through the screen or through your earbuds and literally see your price list. Not really. But we're gonna pretend that she can because she has seen so many, and she has coached so many photographers. She knows what you're probably doing wrong, and she knows what you can do better to make more money. This is gonna be a fun, interactive episode that will make you more money. So get your price list and get ready to take some tough love from Sheryl Bayshore. It's all about pricing. She's standing by. We'll talk to her next. Sheryl, welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast. How are you doing today?

Sheryl Bashore: 02:07

I'm good. How are you?

Pat Miller: 02:08

I'm good. I got a little bit of a thing. So if I, like, cough, please forgive me in advance. And maybe it's the environment that we're gonna be in today because we're gonna talk about something that isn't really easy to talk about. We're gonna talk about pricing, and it makes everyone feel weird. So why is pricing so dang hard for photographers?

Sheryl Bashore: 02:30

I don't know. I wish I could grab people and shake them because it's their scariest thing, and people don't wanna change their pricing. And I have people that come see me conference after conference, workshop after workshop. And then I checked in with them, and they haven't changed it. And they're like, I can't. No one's gonna pay that. People just devalue themselves. So it makes me crazy, actually.

Pat Miller: 02:54

We're gonna do something really fun on this show. It is a world's first. We're gonna be able to have Sheryl see your price list when you hold it up to the camera. It's gonna be magical. The technical team at PPA has been working on this for months. It's a first-ever experience. But before we get to you reviewing our viewers' price list, I wanna start about some big-picture questions. How should we set our prices? I know that's a basic question, but we go from I don't sell this image to I sell this image for this much. Where do we start?

Sheryl Bashore: 03:30

Well, I think it starts with your marketplace, of course, and imagery. And is your imagery good? Because if your imagery is not good, then, in the end, you can't demand pricing. So I think that's where things like going to Imaging and learning and absorbing all that is so important today because you have to make sure your imagery is where it needs to be. And I think it's stop devaluing yourself. Everybody I know how many, this is a great way to sum it up. How many people ask a photographer to shoot their family pictures free because it's your friend? Would you go into a store and ask for a free shirt because you knew someone that owned the store? You wouldn't. But people devalue photographers, and it's done every day. People ask me all the time for free stuff, and I'm always like, I work really hard and I pay a lot of money. I have editors. I have marketing team. I have people that work for me, and they don't understand the devalue that they're asking. And so photographers have this learned behavior of devaluing themselves, I think, because of that. You shoot a team, and the first thing is, what's my kickback? Why do you get a kickback? What did you do to deserve that? I don't even understand that mentality. So all of those things were what started making me crazy because I was already teaching for years, the imagery side, and I was listening to the need of the pricing that people weren't understanding. And I just was shaking my head that they were charging $7 for 5 x 7. Like, what are you doing?

Pat Miller: 05:02

Yeah.

Sheryl Bashore: 05:02

How do you eat? How do you feed your children? You know? So that's kind of where I think this whole people think pricing is so hard. It's not. It's believing in yourself a little bit.

Pat Miller: 05:12

Let's start with the stack to build that profit margin. So when we build our price, should we think about the gross revenue? I wanna make this much on this sale, or should we have each individual product with a profit margin attached?

Sheryl Bashore: 05:26

Well, I'm crazy with my prices, so you can't ask me that question. I believe that, like if I know what the lab cost is. Let's say the lab cost is a dollar 50. And then you have employees. You have outsourcing. You have editors. You have all of these different, how do, and it's like, how in the end can I come up with the value of what that one 5 x 7 is? So I have a really hard time with that. So, why not just charge this and value yourself? So for me, and I don't wanna sell a 5 x 7 anymore. How about that? I wanna sell the digital because that's your biggest highest profit. And in today's market, and we're not portrait photographers. We're volume photographers. It's different. In the portrait world, no one would wanna sell it digital. No one wants to do senior portraits and give away a handful, you know, the shoot-and-burn mentality is not for portrait, but certainly in the volume world. And I love my lab, and I love the products, and I want people to print them, so never misunderstand that and printing is getting big again in my world. For some reason, it's made a big comeback, but I charge a lot.

Pat Miller: 06:32

And you should. And it's something that you've learned to do. So when you talk about how do we get to a higher price or how easy it is to fall down to a lower price, does that come from someone's inexperience of asking for a lot of money coupled with the actual production of the image is going through someone's passion and talent. So it kinda feels like play that they did what they love to do. So it's not like they dug a ditch to build that image. Right? They did what they are naturally on the planet to do. So combining not being used to asking for a lot of money, and it didn't feel like a lot of work. Do those two things go together to suppress our prices?

Sheryl Bashore: 07:08

Well, I think the hobbyist, you know, like, I went to college for photography. It's all I've ever done. But I would have done anybody free to get in people in front of me. And that's the mentality most people start out with. And I teach people to do that. Go get models, bring them in your studio, shoot them for free, and give them the imagery. And it's a wiggle around because you're giving the imagery to show it on social media to get the teams to gain something. So it's really not free. It has a purpose, a really higher purpose. But I think people are so used to that. Well, I love what I'm doing. It's so much fun. But at some point, it becomes hard work. And as much as I still love the imagery, it still excites me. It still makes my heart smile and my head, you know, I love, love, love what I do. But I wouldn't love it if I wasn't making money. And in the beginning, when I was making no money and we still laughed about it. My husband would make fun of me when I would do our taxes. And he'd be like, really? You should just go be a barista. You'd make more money. That was, like, the standing joke. And I used to get mad. So every year, I was determined I was gonna make more money, so he'd stop saying that. And it eventually got to the point where he was like, damn. So, but that took a process and a time. But along that, it took me believing in myself. My imagery getting better and better, which, again, I will tell you, my imagery, I was a photographer. I was a portrait, a wedding, you know, all of that forever. My imagery got to the point where it is from conferences, from workshops. Not on my own. Getting mentors.

Pat Miller: 08:47

By observing what others are doing and mentors--

Sheryl Bashore: 08:49

Yeah.

Pat Miller: 08:49

--and feedback and that sort of thing?

Sheryl Bashore: 08:50

Lots of it. I told this the other day. I spent thousands and thousands of dollars and went to a mentor course. I came home so excited because I learned so much. And then I remember that year, I spent thousands and thousands and went to another mentor course. And these are all senior photos. This was not my world. I was just so, that world was so exciting to me, I wanted to be the best senior photographer you ever saw. Until one day, I realized I was making triple the money on the volume side. And no offense to senior photographers. They're some of my best friends. Their craft is phenomenal. But on the volume side, it could still get my creative outlet and make a lot more money. So you start to teach yourself what's important in life.

Pat Miller: 09:31

In a moment, we are going to defy the laws of nature and have you look at someone's price list through YouTube. It's gonna be magical. But before we do that, I have one more big-picture question. Go ahead. How often should we be reviewing and raising our prices?

Sheryl Bashore: 09:47

You know, I wrote that down because you asked me that ahead of time. And I wrote that down, and you're gonna laugh what I wrote every time. I am a nut. Every time I shoot a team, right before I'm ready to post it online, I look at it and I go, I could add a dollar here, a dollar there. I'm not talking about going from $15 to $40. And that's when I tell people when we start your pricing, we're gonna start it where is acceptable for your pricing. You can't start where I am. Because in your marketplace, if they already know you, they're gonna be like, oh, who do you think you are? But you can certainly up at $2, $3, $4. So every time I shoot a team and I hope they don't are they gonna hear this?

Pat Miller: 10:34

Maybe they will.

Sheryl Bashore: 10:35

But every time I shoot a team, I up it a little bit. Every year I revisit them, their price goes up a little bit, but so does the cost of living. So does the cost of printing. So does everything. So my reasoning is, you know, people will keep that $15 5 x 7 a lifetime. Why? Why? Is it, are you still getting gas for the same price you were 5 years ago? No. You're not. But they won't change it. And it's funny. Real quick. I just worked with a photographer who I've known forever. He is so established, so successful, is in the industry. He talks to conferences. People know him well. And I saw him at a conference I was just at, and he goes, okay. I give up. Show me. Show me. Here's my pricing. And I did a Zoom call with him and changed his pricing, and he was pacing. I go, what do you do? And he goes, I'm having a heart attack. I can't do this. I'm having a heart attack. And I'm like, breathe. It's fine. Breathe. I was like, we're gonna take and it was his first team ever putting online, and we did it. And I watched it. I'm like, I log in every day to his GotPhoto account and look at it because I wanna know if and he got his first by all, and I freaked out. And I texted him, like, you got a by-all. Like, I get so excited. I really wanna see people succeed and do well, and I hate when people undervalue themselves. So me, if one thing if everyone gets one takeaway from today, go home, look at your pricing at up at $2 every single thing. Just $2. Something so little and simple will add up fast if you have 400 kids in front of you or 200 kids or even 80 kids. So just $2, $5. Just try that. And if it works, then call me, and I'll help you.

Pat Miller: 12:15

That's incredible. Okay. So we have broken the rules of nature. I'm ready to push the amazing YouTube button that will allow you to see the price list.

Sheryl Bashore: 12:25

Is this real?

Pat Miller: 12:26

This is real. So if you're watching the show or you're listening to the show--

Sheryl Bashore: 12:30

I have someone’s price list.

Pat Miller: 12:31

--you need to get your price list out right now. Because when I push this button, Sheryl will be able to see it.

Sheryl Bashore: 12:37

I have some buttons.

Pat Miller: 12:38

I wanna make sure you're ready, Sheryl, because you're gonna see all of these price lists at once. Are you ready for this?

Sheryl Bashore: 12:44

No. Yes.

Pat Miller: 12:45

No? Yes? Are you warmed up?

Sheryl Bashore: 12:46

I’m ready. Let's go.

Pat Miller: 12:46

I don’t wanna, like, pull a hammy or something. I wanna make sure you're good to go.

Sheryl Bashore: 12:50

I need an ice pack. Okay.

Pat Miller: 12:51

Exactly. Okay. So get your price list out. Are you ready? Because I'm gonna press this button. Okay. Now, you can see their price list.

Sheryl Bashore: 12:59

Wait. I need a fan.

Pat Miller: 13:00

Yeah. Seriously. Oof, we're really like, this is amazing. So you can see their price list. And what did you notice first? Did you see them get out a piece of paper? Did you see them get out a computer screen? And if it was 1 or the other, what does that tell you as a pricing expert?

Sheryl Bashore: 13:18

Well, if it's a piece of paper, let me turn my fan off because I can't hear anything. If it's a piece of paper, shame on them. And call me. Do something. Throw it away. Look. Are you ready? Are you ready?

Pat Miller: 13:32

Yeah. Oh.

Sheryl Bashore: 13:32

That's a price list. That was my price list forever. It was beautiful, people. It's stupid. Get rid of it. You will make triple the money online. I promise you on my grandson, you will make more money online than you will ever make on a paper form. So if you're using a paper form, please, please, please let it go. That's my first biggest advice. And everywhere I talk, I crumple one up because I still have a 1,000 sitting in a drawer. Because who doesn't? How many did you print back in the day? Because it was cheaper to print 10,000 of them. But it's the paper mentality does not make you more money. It makes you it same thing. I mean, I'm a big advocate against prepay. I just had a long conversation the other day with somebody. I think it stifles the money also. That's my opinion. But I, yeah. So that's number 1 if you're using paper. Let it go. Go online. There's a 1,000,000 software companies out there. Go to a trade show. Talk to every single one of them and find your fit. Go and talk to them. That's my best advice. I could tell you what I use, but I feel like my fit is my best fit, and I'm an advocate for them. I talk about them all the time because I think they're the best. But there's lines of them out there. Go find your best fit. And the second thing, are you ready?

Pat Miller: 14:51

Yeah.

Sheryl Bashore: 14:51

Is all those packages. What is wrong with you people?

Pat Miller: 14:53

Oh, okay.

Sheryl Bashore: 14:54

You guys have a million packages. Who 3 x 5s and 4 x 6s. Stop. This is not a scrapbooking world. You're not a scrapbooker. And if scrapbooking mom wants 4 x 6s, make her buy the digitals and go print them. That is not, you're not making money off of 4 x 6s and 3 x 5s. So let that go.

Pat Miller: 15:13

Hold on. Hold on. We gotta pull the Mississippi River back here because we're on a roll now. Someone who's clutching their beloved paper price list--

Sheryl Bashore: 15:21

Yeah, they’re all upset.

Pat Miller: 15:22

--is looking at you saying, why, Sheryl? Why?

Sheryl Bashore: 15:26

I can’t. They all do, I can’t.

Pat Miller: 15:27

Why is a paper price list not as good as a digital one? Like, is a digital one easier for people to just click and add more, easier to add rates? Like, why is it better?

Sheryl Bashore: 15:37

So many reasons. So, I mean, it all goes back to me for the fundamentals of pricing, which I'll get into after. But when you talk about going online, the first thing that happens is mom hasn't seen any imagery. So when she's picking off of a price list, she's picking off of what she thinks she wants. And she's thinking about her money. She's thinking, I'm gonna have $50 to spend. They're just pictures, and I'm only gonna spend 50. All of a sudden, when you put it online, mom's not thinking about it anymore. She's now excited because it didn't cost her any money to go to the shoot. So now it's all of a sudden a better experience to start with, and the experience is big, big, big. And now, mom all of a sudden gets a ding on her phone. You know what a cell phone world we are, ding in her email, and she gets to press a button and see all of her gorgeous photos of her daughter. And she is wowed. So right away, she's not gonna buy 1. She's not buying 8 x 10 or you know, a single 5 x 7. She's wowed, and she wants all of them. And the idea is to make your pricing work so that mom wants to buy everything or almost everything. But you don't, and I still, don't get me wrong. I still have a package for a mom who can't afford it. I'm a really heartfelt, caring person. So I'll always have things on my price list for a mom that's having a hard time and can only afford $50. Absolutely. I care about that mom because I want her to come back when she has more money. And I want her to tell other people how much I cared. So, but I'm looking for the $300 mom who wants everything because the images are so good. Because, again, you practiced your imagery, you got really good at your craft, and the images are stunning. So now you present it and boom, mom sees all of it. She can change backgrounds. She can pick sizes. You're just won mom. And your average sale, which just happened with this guy, he's like, my average sale is $50. His average sale was now $100.

Pat Miller: 17:38

Makes a big difference when you've got a couple 100 kids in front of you.

Sheryl Bashore: 17:42

Yes. Okay. Absolutely.

Pat Miller: 17:44

The person that was clutching their price list maybe kind of, you know, eased up a little bit, yet they're still not sure about this whole package thing. Like, they've always done packages, and everyone they've always known has done packages.

Sheryl Bashore: 17:57

Right.

Pat Miller: 17:58

But you are, sounds like you're pointing right at the package that's on their list saying, hey, what's the deal with this? So let's talk a little bit more about anti-package.

Sheryl Bashore: 18:07

So it's not anti-package. Let me rephrase that. It is people have so many packages. When people, I do a lot of workshops in mentoring. And when people hand me their price list, the first thing I say is, why do you have so many? Let's dumb this down to 4, maybe 5. You have to have a few selection of packages. The most attractive thing should be the buy all or the one step lower where they get digital prints. Everything else should be a glance buy because your small packages that are $50, they can get one picture. And anytime they go over that $100 mark, they can pick multiple pictures. So it's just, it's a game of pricing. It's the communication profiles get sent out, discount codes, all kinds of things happen online. I call it a drip campaign, and it is mom gets a coupon, but my coupon starts at $100. Mom does not get a discount unless she spends $100. So from day 1, from picture day, they know, oh, for discount, I have to spend a $100, discount $100. So it's set in their mind, and it's told to them over and over. And now it's emailed to them. It's texted to them. They're reminded your coupon's gonna expire. So if you give them all of these packages, like, people have been, oh, my god. I have priceless sitting here that people have sent me. And the more packages you have, it's not helpful. You're giving away the farm. For $40, they get two 3 x 5s, 5 x 7s, 8 x 10s, and a team. Well, they don't need anything else. You just gave them everything for $40. Why would they spend more money? So the first thing I do is I get rid of their packages, and everyone's like, well, I need cute names for my packages. Why? Who cares? Mom does not care what your package is called. And I see that online all the time, and I laugh because mine are called P1, P2, P3. Like, no one cares. And so people focus on the wrong things. So, and the first thing, people fight me. And I always tell them, take a deep breath. I got you. Take a deep breath. We're gonna take away some of these packages. And it's gonna feel bad but trust me. And then my next thing, same thing for that person clutching their paper right now, is try one team, a small team, your smallest team. For me, it's all the girls' stuff. Take a small cheer team and start with that. Put your packages, put your priceless in that I helped you do. Put that in and then see what happens. And if it happens, the magic, like I say it will, and, I trust enough to my reputation that it will, then do another team and another team. Because once they realize, oh, my god, I can charge that, they start to value themselves as photographers. But it's not just a photographer, as business owners. You're not just a photographer in the volume world. You are a business owner and a business person, and you have to kinda take your thinking cap. You're not just shooting a camera anymore.

Pat Miller: 21:02

You're talking about the psychology of pricing, and you're looking at their price list. And I would imagine you see many photographers are 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, and those are my packages. They're not doing the things that restaurants do to guide you to the right result or a higher average ticket.

Sheryl Bashore: 21:19

Yeah.

Pat Miller: 21:19

Is that, am I hearing you correctly? Is that what you're talking about?

Sheryl Bashore: 21:20

Yes. If you give people too many choices for lower money, they don't need to spend more money. You don't, that guy that I told you I redid his packages, he was freaking out. And I was like, I can't believe you give that away in a $40 package. Are you out of your mind? But they're used to it. Well, tell them you've just gone online and you had to redo your packaging. You had to revamp everything. You hired a business manager. You hired an online software team. Blame it on the big guy, but the minute you let go of these, I mean, Lifetouch, always had it where there was all of these things stacked in these packages, and they don't work.

Pat Miller: 22:00

And when you're helping people, is it kind of, it sounds like you're trying to save a drowning person and they're fighting you. Like, they--

Sheryl Bashore: 22:09

They always fight me.

Pat Miller: 22:10

--don’t want to change. But you've seen this movie before. And on average, when you're helping these people, you take them to a better place.

Sheryl Bashore: 22:17

Oh, everyone bites me. There's nobody, they all come to me. They want me to change it. I have mentor groups where people are paying me a lot of money to mentor them, and they still fight me when I get down to the nuts and bolts of their packaging. And I'm like, why would you pay me all this money to trust me to teach you, but now you're gonna fight me? And I laugh about it, and I'm like, just trust me. Like, the guy pacing. I'm like, just try it. And I didn't even put him where I am. I put in his packaging, if this is where it was, he's like here, and I'm a here. So he saw us all this wiggle room that we're gonna go. But I see where they are, and then I adjust it. I never, I would never jump somebody from here to here. Because that's, they're gonna fail. And, again, I'm all about people succeeding, so.

Pat Miller: 23:07

So we've shown you our price list. On average, there are too many things on it, too many packages on it, but we wanna increase our average ticket. So what about ancillary stuff like water bottles and T-shirts and hats? Should we be doing that stuff to raise the average ticket?

Sheryl Bashore: 23:23

Everyone has a Yeti now. Right? Or a Stanley or God knows what. My kids have so many of those things. So I went through, and I used to push all that. Every shoot I went to, I hung up a blanket of silhouette, a blanket of a team. I had bottles, water bottles with silhouettes. I think they're beautiful. And when I just taught a workshop, everyone got a water bottle with the ballerina silhouette, and I think it's great. It's great advertising. I no longer bring any of that to shoots. I have a shoot today. This is what I brought. It's pink because that's my brand, but there's nothing on it. The reason is I don't wanna sell that. You don't make money on it. You just don't. Is it on my pricing? Yes. I have a blanket, a water bottle. I stole magnets and buttons, key chains. That's it. That's where it ends. There are nothing else on there. And the point is people still want that. I'm fine with it. I would never tell a mom they can't have a magnet or a button. At a cheer comp where you're shooting and printing on-site, buttons are huge. But that's not what this is. So it's knowing what sells. I could sell a water to, for us to make the same money, I'd have to sell this for $300. Because it's gonna cost me what, 25 to make it and, or 30. I forget what it is. And I love photo flash drive. I think they're the best of the best that Brian is the nicest man ever, and I'm a big advocate of his company. And I do promote him and his work, but I think it's for your employees. I think it's for the end-of-the-year gift for the team. I talk a lot of my teams into doing end-of-the-year gift as a water bottle or a blanket, but I don't want that to be what mom focuses on. I want to, I'll say it again. And I make people yell it when I talk. I want them to buy all. I want them to spend $300, $400, and buy all. All digital, print it themselves. God bless them. That's what I want. And my 2nd highest package is digital and prints. I'm fine with that, too. If they spend under $100, I do cringe a little.

Pat Miller: 25:25

So we're gonna move on, but I wanna recap this magical session of looking at everyone's price list because it was pretty epic. First of all, we crumpled up our paper price lists. We slashed the number of opportunities that are on the list because we're offering too many things. We had a for real and intentional conversation about packages. We talked about the psychology of pricing and how you can make sure that you're putting your buy-all packages to make them simply irresistible, and then you told us to stop selling T-shirts and water bottles. That was a real uplifting time, Sheryl. Thank you for that.

Sheryl Bashore: 26:00

Yeah. And then you wanna have me back soon. Right?

Pat Miller: 26:02

No. It's awesome. It's exactly what people need to hear. That's why I'm so glad we're doing this.

Sheryl Bashore: 26:07

They need their butts kicked. I swear to God. I stand there, and I'm a very heartfelt speaker as you can tell. I'm a very emotional speaker. And I'm the first one to give everyone a big hug and then kick their butt. Because I'm like, I think that I was put up there to teach for a reason that, yes, I love you. I will help you, but you have to listen. You have to want to evolve. You have to want to change. And I wrote that. You wrote, you said something up here. You asked me some question. I wrote, yeah, they have to evolve. I wrote that really big. The world's changed. We're now a digital world. I still have a film camera. I have in my office at home a huge wooden camera, like an antique. We're not using them anymore. Think about how photography evolves. And if you don't evolve with it, you are left behind. That is an unfortunate, like, with AI and everything coming, if you're not willing to evolve and change, you're, eventually, you're gonna retire young, so.

Pat Miller: 27:04

Having the conversation about pricing applies to any professional photographer. I wanna now turn and ask you some questions specifically about volume because I would be committing host malpractice if we didn't try to learn from you about your volume program. So let's talk about some of the secrets to make more money in volume. The first thing you did is you talked about raising the prices every single time you go out. That was awesome. What are some other thoughts about how we can make more money specifically with volume photography?

Sheryl Bashore: 27:33

Well, I think the first thing that comes, and I screen this, is the experience. It matters. How you make a kid feel, how you make a mom feel makes the world of if you're gonna sell. And I'm the first one. If you're not that pushy, gushy person and you can't talk to the moms and you can't talk to the kids, hire someone who can. End of story. Don't tell me you don't have, I'm too shy or I'm, you know, I'm resting bitch face. Oh, you hear all of it. Like, no. Hire someone. Hire someone who smiles. It's so simple. And I say it all the time. I hug every kid. I know every kid's name. I know every mom's name. And it's just that, like, I don't know why, but I do. And I remember everyone. And that is my reputation. That is my personality, my reputation, my brand. And people, if you look at my Facebook, what people write when they post their pictures is, you made my daughter feel beautiful. You made my daughter the best experience. These are, I am so well loved, but it's genuine. It is so genuine and heartfelt for me. That's the part I love what I do, and I love the children. So in turn, the pictures are gorgeous. You know why? The kids are comfortable. They're smiling. They're giggling. They're laughing. Mom's back here, and I wanna hit people over the head. They won't let Mom stand there and do this. What is wrong with you? Let Mom stand there and do that. Mom wants to capture the experience of her daughter having this wonderful shoot, and she wants to post it on social media. I turn to her and say, tag me. This is my Instagram. I want them to post. They cannot capture what I'm capturing. I'm shooting. I composite. I shoot on a last delay. I shoot headshots. What they see is not the final product. So that it all gets mom excited, and their daughter walks away. And the mom goes, wow. You made my daughter feel beautiful. I had a mom write me today. She got her imagery today, and she said my daughter's never felt like this. She wanted to quit dance. Her self-esteem was not good. Thank you for doing this. It makes me wanna cry every time, but I see those kids every single day, and mom bought everything. Mom spent $450 because of that, because how her daughter felt and looked matters. And, again, I'm in the girl world, so I am not gonna speak about football or baseball. I'm not the right one to talk about that. But I shot that forever. I did football and all that for years, and I treated them the same way. And you wanna laugh? And this is a, are you ready? This is like I'm shooting field hockey at 5 o'clock today. Do I shoot field hockey people? No. What's behind me? Dancers, cheerleaders? No. And this is a best friend of mine that works for my husband. Her husband is the coach, and she begged me. And I do not do field hockey. And, you know, it's funny.

Sheryl Bashore: 30:25

All my friends are messaging me going, this is gonna be the most glam field hockey team ever. I'm like, yep. Hair is gonna be flying. It's gonna be gorgeous. And they're like, maybe it'll be the new thing. And I'm like, the point is I am gonna charge them like a cheerleader. And if they don't buy, we'll see. So it's kind of a really cool test because everyone's like, well, you don't know. You don't shoot the other stuff. I'm like, so I'm gonna find out today. And I almost said yes just because it gives me an experience on that platform with my pricing, just so I'll check back with you and let you know. But I'm kind of excited about it, and I'm not even doing it for the money. I'm doing it more to see what happens, and the girls will have beautiful pictures, so.

Pat Miller: 31:03

I wanna hear. I wanna hear about that. I ask this I ask this question to volume photographers. I'm curious of your opinion. You do the shoot, and figuratively, who's the customer? The kid or the parent?

Sheryl Bashore: 31:15

The kid. I hate to say it. The kid is. If the kid has a bad experience, they don't want the pictures. If the kid looks at the pictures and doesn't like them, Mom, I don't want them. And the mom will still buy them, but buy less. It's just, but I don't know. The older the kid, the more it matters to the kid. But in the dance world, mom runs the show. So I think they're, I could go either way with that. I don't I'm a little wishy-washy on that answer.

Pat Miller: 31:44

Sure. And some have a very clear answer on that. Some people are make the kid feel like a superstar and that the average ticket goes through the roof, and some people are really trying to please the mom and make the mom feel like the kid had a great experience.

Sheryl Bashore: 31:56

I'm a mom. I'm all about the moms. That's a really big thing. But in the end, the mom's paying. In the end, the mom's buying. In the end, the mom wants the imagery for grandma and grandpa. And so there's this, like, fine line. So maybe my question is the mom.

Pat Miller: 32:12

The mom. Yeah. While making the kid feel great because I can tell that that is your emotional connection, it sounds like your heart is with the kid and your pocketbook is with the parent. Is that fair to say?

Sheryl Bashore: 32:21

Yeah.

Pat Miller: 32:22

Yeah.

Sheryl Bashore: 32:33

But my heart's usually with the mom, too. I like, I hug, I kid you not, every mom. Like, they just, I genuinely love what I do. So when you asked about that earlier about loving what you do, I love what I do, but I make a lot of money at what I do, which helps me love it even more. If I was making no money, I don't know if this conversation would be the same. You know what I mean? If I was making $20,000, $30,000 a year, I don't know that I would feel the way I feel and be so animated about it, and it excites me.

Pat Miller: 32:55

You're kicking butts at scale through YouTube. Like, this is really amazing. This is like satellite-delivered butt-kicking that you're doing here on this show, which is really, really impressive. Alright. We're almost out of time, but I gotta ask a couple more quick questions. So we do the package. They're buying it online. Do we ever consider coupons? Good idea or bad idea?

Sheryl Bashore: 33:15

Best idea ever.

Pat Miller: 33:17

Really?

Sheryl Bashore: 33:17

Best. Best. I do a coupon. It's 10% off of a $100 and free shipping. They have 2 weeks to use it, and that's it. It's not 10% off of 50. It's not 5% off of 50. It is 10% off of $100, and they get free shipping 2 weeks. They get reminded a bunch of times. The communication profile dings them constantly. But for me, it's I'm telling them they have to spend a $100 or they get nothing. So if a mom's at $89 or $90, they will spend $100 to get the coupon. It's that Walmart mentality. It is a real thing. So the coupon absolutely works. It creates urgency. It creates where they don't wanna miss out. They wanna order. The highest selling day I have of a gallery is that day the coupon's gonna expire. It's not when it goes live, and I tell everyone that. They're like, well, it went live and only 2 people ordered. I'm like, breathe. Just breathe. Take a deep breath. It's okay. That is not your selling date. That's the day where they see it, and they're, like, oohing and eyeing, and the kids are showing friends, and everyone's sharing and looking, and it's awesome. And I've seen people say, like, the kids will screenshot it and post it on Instagram or whatever with all the watermarks. God bless them. Who cares? Who cares? People get so angry about this. Who cares? They're buying them. In my world, they're buying them. So if they were doing that, not buying them, I'd be upset. But mom's still buying. The kids just get excited. So I know for me, that initial day, the initial week is I'll get, like, 10 sales. Nothing exciting. And I just went over my, like, whole all my stats with my online software and with GotPhoto. We sat and did all my stats, and they said that I have the highest click rate, which I thought was really cool. People, and that's me as a photographer, not me as a teacher. Me, as a photographer, my customers click right away, which means they're opening it up right away. So I thought that was exciting. Does that mean they're buying right away? No. But that day that coupon expires, I am 80% sold. And then 2 weeks later when the gallery's ending, the rest sell. And I'm a very high buy rate.

Pat Miller: 35:30

How long does it take to not be freaking out on the days that your coupon expires or the gallery closes? Because I know that when I do stuff like that, I'm a nervous wreck waiting for the sales to come in. How long does it take till you feel like, well, I know just that's how it goes and it's gonna be fine?

Sheryl Bashore: 35:47

I still get anxiety. I still watch my phone to see the sales. Every time I get a sale, I look at my phone and I go, I got a sale. I got a sale. Like, I still get excited, and I still, like, get super excited when it's, like, a high sale. And, I mean, I was sitting at the last conference I was at, and 3 sales came in, and they were all, like, over $500. And I was like, look, people. Look. Be like, I get super excited, but I look at every sale, too. So I everybody that orders, I take a moment and I open it and make sure everything's okay. I don't care if 100 sales come in. I will open up every single one of them and make sure that the imagery's right, the cropping's right, everything's smooth, everything's paid. It's still the business. So you have to keep that in your head. But I don't know I don't know that you ever get over it. You just start to see the money, and it calms you down. So, like, that team that's going up, I'm not depending on that team right now to pay my bills this month. Like, you start to get past that. But I think in the beginning when you're, like, I just put out this money for software, this money for cameras, and I have a woman right now that she's like, I have no more money left. I don't know what to do. So I think when you get that mentality, you start to freak out more. And those are the people I just try to calm, you know, help them through it. But eventually, when they start to see that, let's say they did extracting and they put out a $1,000 for extractions. You're gonna freak out till about $1,000 is back in your pocket. And I can't tell somebody not to feel that way. But next thing you know, you'll have $3,000 then $4,000. You'll be like, oh.

Pat Miller: 37:21

Hey. Look, everybody. I made another sale. Hey. Look. I'm at $3,000 today.

Sheryl Bashore: 37:25

I used to, do you wanna laugh? I used to sit at cheer competitions, and we shot all over the country, traveled all over, and shot cheer. It's how I started. And I would sit I was the shooter of action in the room, and we had people printing on-site, and we had green screen and team photos and all kinds of crazy stuff. And I would sit there because my phone was the only one that the credit card machine was linked to. I would sit there and go, we're still negative. Oh, we're still negative. We're still negative. And I would freak out, and then I'd get to the point where you're positive. We'd be up $100. I'm like, cool. I can buy everyone dinner. Like, that's how I thought. So I understand it because I lived it. Been there, done it. So when I tell people my pricing, I didn't start here. I started with that paper order form charging no money with crazy packages hoping to break even. I've been there. So in no way, shape, or form, I am preaching what I know.

Pat Miller: 38:20

A good friend of mine hosts a podcast called learn from those who lived it, and that's what we did today. We learned from someone that went through it all, and now she's teaching you and kicking your butt globally, which is unbelievable. Sheryl Bashore, thank you so much for joining us on The Professional Photographer Podcast.

Sheryl Bashore: 38:39

This was the best time. So thank you for having me.

Pat Miller: 38:42

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of The Professional Photographer Podcast. I'm already excited to talk with you again, and hopefully, next time will be just as much fun as it was with Sheryl. Now, before you go, can you do me a favor? I want you to go to the comment section and tell us what you loved about this week's conversation. What did Sheryl teach you that you didn't know? Also, it would be super cool if you liked and subscribed to this episode. That way we can find you next time we've got some great content, and your feedback will help us know that we are on the right track. Also, if you're not yet a member of Professional Photographers of America, you're missing out. PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in a sustainable and profitable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership at ppa.com. That's ppa.com. I'm Pat Miller, founder of the Small Business Owners Community. Thanks for joining us on this journey. We appreciate your support, and we'll be back soon with more tools to help you build your business with The Professional Photographer Podcast. See you next time.