The Future of Photography and Creative Vision with Ab Sesay

Pat Miller: 00:00

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. By now, you know this show is about helping you build a strong photography business. That means being able to run a business that happens to take pictures as the product. You're probably doing almost everything from time management, client relations, bookkeeping, packaging, marketing, sales and more. With that kind of workload, not to mention your commitments to family and friends, your dedication to the craft can slip. You love to take pictures and you wanna be as good as you can be, but in reality, you're tasked with so many things that getting better can sometimes get in the way. But what if you really want to improve? What if you really want to dedicate the time and effort to make the best images possible? It's not for the faint of heart. To begin with, you must admit that you're not as good as you'd like to be. You also need to put in the time to read and learn and take classes so you can acquire the skills and techniques to become, well, the best that you can be. Where do you start? How do you know where you are and where you can go? And is it really worth it? If you get really good and create outstanding images, is there a payoff personally and professionally? Our guest today is Ab Sesay, a teacher, passionate creator, and the creative director at the Mac group. Ab Sesay is always thinking about getting better, and we're gonna talk about what it takes to push yourself to excellence. It's time to level up. Are you in? We'll be back with Ab Sesay. Ab, welcome to the Professional Photographer Podcast. How are you today?

Ab Sesay: 01:55

Oh, I'm doing very well, and thank you for having me on The Professional Photographer Podcast. It is a pleasure to be here today.

Pat Miller: 02:01

I'm glad to have you. We get to talk about doing excellent work. Professional photographers, they take pictures to make money. And if you take pictures and make money, you earn the right to take more pictures and make more money. But along the way, it's pretty easy to slide into taking pictures just to make money, and focusing on making the pictures as best they can be can kinda fall into the background. So, I'm excited to have this conversation today because we get to explore how to take great pictures so you can make more money.

Ab Sesay: 02:33

A 100%.

Pat Miller: 02:34

So where does it begin for a photographer that has the courage to not just do the work, but to do excellent work? Is it the vision and the passion that they feel like they have something to say?

Ab Sesay: 02:44

I think it starts in 2 places. I think photography is one of those things that can literally take you anywhere in the world and give you the opportunity to meet anyone you wanna meet. And I think photography also can just be something that you're absolutely in love with. You love visual expression, you love seeing, you love taking images, you love the process of after taking the images, processing them in such a way so that it kind of meets your vision or you can kind of explore new vision within the work. And so, I feel like, as I talk to more photographers, I feel like some people went to photography to escape something else, and then some people found photography and knew 100% that it was their calling. And I would say that me, I found that it was my calling. And it's something that I'm very passionate about and do literally all the time. I mean, even now when I walk to the gym on my iPhone, I make it like a short little one-mile photo walk in which I will, you know, shoot all the different, you know, scraps of like Burger King wrappers or cups that I see, or just things where the morning light is hitting it in certain in a certain way. Always just working to train my eye.

Pat Miller: 03:54

And as that process goes on, and now you're monetizing that passion and that gift, do you find that there is a stress between those two things that the desire to make money and to put food on the table, but also to fulfill yourself creatively in this passion to capture what you see. Are those two things naturally at odds, or do you find them at odds in your own life?

Ab Sesay: 04:18

I feel the work that you get hired to do can definitely be at odds with what you're passionate about. And I feel as if though every commercial photographer is going to run across that, especially if you find out that someone's not hiring you as much as for your vision as it is to communicate their vision. And if you're a photographer whose curated style, and let me not use the word style, let me say point of view In terms of the way that you take images and you find clients that align with that and want you to execute your point of view, I feel as if though that alignment will bring you more continued success and less burnout. But I was listening to, an audiobook recently by this author, Ali Abdaal, who talks about productivity. And one of the types of burnouts he talks about is misalignment burnout. And I feel as if though if you start out in photography simply to make money and find out what your clients want and just give your clients what they want. And it's kind of more of a being a people pleaser than a photographer. Sometimes you can start to find there is this burnout from misalignment. In taking on jobs that necessarily, you know, when you hear the term when someone says, well, I did it, but I wouldn't necessarily put it in my portfolio. I think that you wanna start to get to the point where all the images you take are something that you put in your portfolio. And that you don't burn out with something simply because you're not aligned with it, you know. And I think if you take on too many projects where there's misalignment, then it just it does turn into work. And I think to protect yourself, you have to do personal projects, have to somehow communicate your point of view in terms of what you wanna do. And sometimes it could be a certain technique that you wanna execute, in order to kinda keep what I'm gonna call, like, creative alignment. You know, it makes the role of being a photographer unbelievably gratifying.

Pat Miller: 06:20

I wanna stay on this topic of burnout or feeling stuck. Or feeling like you're not fulfilled creatively when you are being hired by others to do work. Is that when that becomes most prominent, you feel stuck and burned out when you're doing what the client is asking you to do, but you're not running it through the filter and perspective of your photographic point of view? You're just doing what others tell you to do?

Ab Sesay: 06:43

Well, I would say first off, we have to start by being extremely open-minded. And when someone brings you a project, understanding that they are hiring you because you are a professional. And not to have the knee jerk reaction of, I need to follow their direction exactly. And I think that they're, you know, being a commercial photographer, you do have to do a little bit of exploration. And when somebody comes with an idea, you know, finding out why they hired you, whether it's not, you know, they loved some work that you've done. It's always a plus if someone says, oh, I saw this image that you took of such and such. I would love something like that, you know. And on the flip side, sometimes when someone's hiring you out of convenience, they'll say, oh, my friend, such and such recommended me to you and I'm wondering if you could execute this job for us, you know. You know, there's a slight difference there. One person wants to work with you because you're a photographer and you're personable. Another person wants to work with you because they want you to execute the creative that you're known for. And so I don't know if I'm answering the question well, but I feel as if though you when a client approaches you and you're thinking about how you execute the job or what they're asking for, approaching it with an open mind and trying to steer it in the direction of what your vision for their project is, if it can fall within your vision, is part of your job as a photographer and an artist. You know, it is taking all their input, running it through your filter, and hopefully, on the other side, you can give it a treatment that aligns with how you feel it should look creatively.

Pat Miller: 08:21

Which is that value add that you give as a professional. Do these three things. You use your vision and your creativity to do those three things in a way that you think is visually pleasing and you know you can deliver. That's the bonus of working with a professional that has a vision as opposed to do these three things and you interpret that as that must mean this way of doing it. Am I hearing you right?

Ab Sesay: 08:43

A 100%.

Pat Miller: 08:44

Okay. So, let's go from being stuck in our creative vision and get into the feeling of, I know what I'm trying to shoot, but I really wanna get better. And when you admit that you wanna get better, that takes some courage to admit that you can get better and that you're willing to do the work. And if someone came to you and said, Ab, please help me. I wanna get better. Where would you have them begin?

Ab Sesay: 09:09

Man, in terms of getting better, I think first, it takes a lot of self-awareness. And I think you have to ask yourself what, you know, what do you feel where do you feel like you're currently lacking? Do you feel as if though you're lacking simply in terms of vision? Do you think you're lacking in terms of the ability to, like, give direction? Do you think it's planning? You know, I mean, some people are brilliant, but by the time they get to approach a job, they didn't plan enough to kinda, like, clear a runway for them just to focus on the creative of that day, and they're dealing with actual production things. So, I think self-awareness and having a team around you that can, really, really make sure that you're telling yourself the truth and you know where you stand, you know. And you can self-critique and have other people that can critique your work as well so that ultimately, you're not you're not lying to yourself, you know. And sometimes I think it's simply good let's say everything is perfect and you're exactly where you wanna be, it's good to have people around you or just have a process in which you can question. You know, I think, you know, for me, like, almost every time I shoot a picture and I'm in post and I get to the tie the point of kind of, like, toning the image just or just simply adding contrast, I start second my guessing myself even there, you know after I'm happy with everything else. It's like, okay. Well, what should the final outcome be? You know? So, I think that, ultimately, I would tell someone that you really have to have a team of people around you in a process in which you're always looking to get better. And if you think that everything is perfect, be able to define why. And have a really good understanding of, okay, this image, I nailed it. You, let me pin this one to the wall because I feel as if though this is a milestone. And if there's other images, I think it's you like you just have to ask yourself, like, you know what? I could oppose this person better or I should've taken 5 more minutes and lit this with a little bit more intention. Or when it comes to production, it's like, you know what? I really should've pushed that we got that elephant as a prop. You know, like, I think these are all things that that fall into, you know, what you do as an image maker to make sure that you can keep constantly improving. You know, because if you're not improving and you're not questioning yourself, I can almost guarantee that you're stagnant. And there's things happening around you that you're losing sight of. You know, that could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on, like, where you're at in your career. You know, I know some artists don't wanna look at any outside influences it's very smart to be very, very aware of everything that's going on around you because, you know, those could be references that your clients call upon that, you know, they want you to, you know, be aware of as you're executing what you're doing for them.

Pat Miller: 12:13

When people say you need to be self-aware and you need to know where you're at, someone can perceive that as well. These are all the things I don't know how to do yet, or this is where I'm inferior. But when you get opinions from others, it can also tell you, woah. Here's how far you get to go. Here's how much talent you do have. So, getting people around you to give you that outside perspective, can that help you see the future almost? Like, you have a real gift for this. Let's develop it. And is that fellow photographers? Are you hiring a mentor to coach you? How would we go about getting that kind of feedback if you're just a guy in his basement trying to make a photography studio happen?

Ab Sesay: 12:51

So, if you're someone who's literally in their basement just trying to make a photography studio happen, I would say social media is a great place to go. You know, I have a lot of photographers who reach out to me on Instagram and just ask my opinion about with images that they take. As you become more advanced, there are portfolio reviews that you can pay for where you can sit down with a professional photo editor or a photographer or a creative director, and they will look at your work and give you their opinions and feedback in terms of, like, where your work fits in. And simply pulling friends. If you have a lot of work for them to react to. Just asking them, you know, what they think about your work, you know. I think all those things can be really, really helpful. But, you know, for the person starting out who's in their basement, I would say try to find a mentor. Go to workshops, go to places like imaging where you can meet other like-minded people. And I don't say that to promote imaging. I say it because I think it's actually extremely difficult to find community when you're first starting out. And finding that community is critical to your growth. Having people to ask questions to and, you know, people who can evaluate your work and you can evaluate theirs and kind of exchange that critique. You know. When I was in photo school, critique was one of those things that really allowed you to see someone else's point of view. And I think that's the most important thing is as a photographer, you wanna have a point of view. And in terms of expanding and staying creative and staying open-minded, you wanna understand the point of view of others.

Pat Miller: 14:24

We're gonna talk about things we can consume and other ways we can get better in a minute. But before we go there, if someone's watching this, they're like, yes. I wanna be good. Yes. I wanna get better. Yes. I'm gonna get people around me and take their feedback before we even step off. This isn't easy, right, to go from pretty good to great. This is it a grind? Is it tough to take those additional steps? Or if you're in the right frame of mind, it's easy to make those steps?

Ab Sesay: 14:51

I think if you're in the right frame of mind, it's easy. When I started out in photography, it you know, the exciting part is it was so accessible in terms of art. And I thought that it was extremely easy. As I got more experience, I started realizing how difficult that it can be at times, especially if you work outside your comfort zone. And I never tell myself that it's that it's difficult. You know, every time I look to where I've made a mistake personally or if I discuss with my team how we could have done better, it always boils down to preproduction, you know. And, you know, there was times, like, early in my career, I did a lot of street photography and there were times where it's funny, I was one of my friends, we were shooting one day down in SoHo, and we saw Quentin Tarantino. And so, we started following him and then he went into this hair salon and we kinda waited. So, when he came out, he had we, you know, we were gonna cross paths, and I asked him if I could do a portrait. I did a portrait of him, and then my friend was like, oh, can you get a picture of both of us? And the picture I took of my friend with Quentin Tarantino was horribly out of focus. And he thought I did it on purpose, you know, but it was just one of those things where it's just like slow down, take a breath, make sure the pictures in focus. Because it's not worth taking if it's not in focus, you know. And I think I even tell myself that now if I'm working with a subject, like, am I just clicking the shutter to get to the next frame, or am I trying to make this frame as good as it can possibly be?

Pat Miller: 16:16

Let's talk resources. We wanna start taking purposeful steps forward to become a better photographer. You mentioned coming to imaging to find community and get feedback, but are there books? Are there courses? Are there training programs? If we wanna sign up for something or read something that helps us get better, where would you recommend, we start?

Ab Sesay: 16:33

In terms of what I can recommend, I think that I think books are hugely important, for one reason. A, there's so many of them out there and there's so much work that you can look at that can, like, influence and inspire you. B, if you're meeting with other people, it's a great way to get their critique on work that's not your own so that you can better understand what they look at. And then when you do ask them for critique on your own work, you can know whether they're giving you the truth or not based upon, you know, what they've seen before. And I think books are, you know, so some books like there's this book, by Philip Montgomery called American Mirror. And I think this is a beautiful book because as photographers, oftentimes, we get so worried about the technique that we forget truly to focus on what's happening in front of us. And on some shoots, let's say I’m doing a shoot in a fashion shoot and I'm working with a model, I feel as if though I can take 300 pictures to walk away with 5. And then on some sheets, I feel like I can take 25 images to walk away with 5. And I feel like the 5 images would be stronger when I only take 25. And I think that as a photographer, learning to have a point of view of knowing what you really wanna see in front of the camera, but also being aware of, like, how to direct so something can unfold. You know, I feel like this book, American Mirror, is, you know, it's documentary photography. So, you're not really worried about the lighting. You're not really worried about all these things that the photographer didn't have control over. But you will still see the photographer's influence in the framing. In terms of the lighting, whether the available light is very important in the photo or whether or not it's more important to simply put a flash on camera so that you can accurately capture what's there because the events unfolding are so strong, you know. And so, I think this book is for me, it's really important and it reminds me of that. Another book I look at is, there's I just picked this one up. This one's kinda hard to find but it's by Nadav Khandar. And I just feel like there's just stylistic choices in here that I think are really smart as you look at the different portraits. And some of this stuff was based on, you know, assignments that he had. I'm sure some of it is, you know, personal work and portraits. But I feel like everything is more curated. Everything was done with greater intention, and I just feel as though it's a great portrait book to look at where you're able to see portraits that aren't necessarily standard. Where there's, you know, if I can show you, like, 22 images on this screen and, you know, I'll give you time in case you have to block them out or something, but, like, for this image here, you know, he's using motion blur and just has, like, the person's head moving, you know, and I think it's really smart versus, like, the portrait on the next page in which he's kind of, like, you know, kind of playing with the whole Christ on a cross thing, but it's a musician with, like, a microphone.Yeah. And, you know, still wearing like a crown. So, like, maybe I look at that and I say, okay, that's like a little bit too contrived. But then just looking at the tone used in these portraits, you know, one of them is very blue and cool tone. The other one is very natural. And then the use of, just like in the front, there's, like, these little, I don't know, herb herbs or whatever going on. You know, I just think that there's just smart and very calculated decisions in books like that that that I feel like seeing those little smart things where someone added it or made a decision to include it, I like to look at. And then finally, I think there's a book, and it's sad, this one became very hard to find is, the issues editor at New York Times Magazine, Kathy Ryan, came out with this book called Office Romance. And, you know, she's a photo editor, very famous photo editor, and like, literally, she's just photographing things that she sees in the office, you know. So as I flip through any random page, she's just finding these little moments taken over years in her office space where she works at, you know, and you start to see, like, the relationship between, like, this image and then this image and how she's just looking at all this all these things that are going on and the use of, like, shadows and, you know, again, you know, situations where, you know, as I walk to the gym, you know, I think about this book as I walk past the same things every day. Whether I like it or not, they are changing, you know? Or like this image here, you know, like, on a snowy day getting, like, these circles happening here and next to these scissors acting like they're about to cut something. Like, I feel like when I talk to portrait photographers, they're just looking at work of portrait photography. I feel like the good thing about books is they can show you work that necessarily doesn't relate to what you do, but just getting into the photographer's head and understanding, like, their thought process, and then also understanding, like, the edit, you know, the order of the images, the size that they're representing them at. If they use any text next to the image, can be very important. You know, I think that understanding how text can benefit an image can be very, very helpful because not every image stands on its own, and not every image needs to, you know, I think sometimes as a commercial photographer, the relation of your image to a headline is very important. And so, I think constantly looking for me is hugely helpful. And being aware of photography that looks like nothing about the what you do. I mean, like, the Kathy Ryan book just reminds me of, like, the thousands of images I have in my iPhone of these little random moments that I thought were that I thought were significant but didn't know how they were significant. And now I look at her book and I'm just like, you know what? I should download 200 of these random images I have in my iPhone and edit them together. Like, is there something in my own head that I'm missing that I could translate into my commercial work and make me a better photographer? So, I think that and it allows me to have conversations with other people and me asking for a critique on images I took out of my iPhone that I've curated and sequenced versus me talking about, you know, an assignment that I had is gonna be very different and allows me to talk to different people. You know? Like, it allows me to talk to someone who doesn't shoot portraits, still get their ideas on photography, which could catapult me into a whole other realm of photography I didn't even know that existed. That, you know, I mean, there are some photographers who make 1,000 of dollars a year licensing their work to hotels. I could be sitting on images in my high iPhone that a hotel wants to license to put on their wall, which may make me say, you know, in the future, let me walk around and do the same work with a higher-end camera so that, you know, I can get pictures with a little bit more fidelity. You know, in which point, again, you're just it's always thinking. You know, at some point where photographers now are letting you know when their pictures were shot on film, you know, at some point, there's gonna become a point that says this image was not taken with AI. And I think we're almost we're basically on we're already there.

Pat Miller: 23:58

In an average week, how much of our time, percentage-wise, would you dedicate to improving? Is this an everyday thing? Is this purposeful one-session-a-week kinda thing? Is this when you have time? If you were coaching someone who really wanted to get better, how much of their time should be spent on it?

Ab Sesay: 24:15

A 100% of the time. I think that now, you know, I started going to the gym more, and it's to be in better shape when, a, speaking in front of people, but also having to carry tons of equipment around. You know, I recently did a shoot in the city, and when I scattered the location, I saw there was, like, a possibility that we, it's a weird part of the city. There's a part in Hudson Yards, not too far from Hudson Yards where we were shooting this location called the Midnight Theater And to get to it, you had to, like, walk off the street into this courtyard. And so, I'm challenged with, okay, I'm gonna have, like, probably £400 worth of equipment. And worst-case scenario, if I can't get security clearance to bring it underneath the building, which for some ungodly reason, there's a huge amount of security. You know, in order you know, to just give some feedback, the building that we were shooting in, we had to drive under a building that was full of a bunch of lawyers. And so, they felt as though there was a huge security risk. So, in order to park and get to the loading dock, I had to get a certificate of insurance because we're going under the building. So, we had to get our car sniffed out by a bomb-sniffing dog and then escorted, like, to a specific loading dock. You know, after that, I think they did even, like, light background checks and stuff. You know, license, like, it was unbelievable, you know. And it's a normal building in Manhattan. And so, the benefit was going through about an hour of preproduction. I even went and met with the parking the kinda like the parking staff and loading dock staff a week earlier to make sure we had, like, everything ironed out in terms of, like, the proper insurance and all that type of stuff, you know. And the flip side of that is I would've had to walk about I'm gonna say about a half a block with about £400 worth of gear. And so, if I had to, being in good shape would be an amazing thing. And then having to take all that gear up 2 flights of stairs to get tied to the theater that we were gonna shoot in. You know? So, I think, you know, mentally dealing with stress well, working out, you constantly wanna be thinking about everything you can do to get better. Learning, you know, what's new in Photoshop, you know, AI retouching, new lighting techniques. Like any, you know, anything that can make you 1 percent better. Every week and everything I do, I'm thinking, like, how can I get 1% better?

Pat Miller: 26:40

Let's talk about what's in it for us if we do get better. The power of being excellent and doing great work. If you've got a strong sense of style, you can shoot what you see. You can capture the image that you're looking for. There is gold at the end of the rainbow. This does result in more bookings and higher rates.

Ab Sesay: 26:58

It can result in more bookings and higher rates, but I think, ultimately, it just results in being happier. And I think that as a photographer, if you only look at more bookings and higher rates as the measure of success, you could be very, very successful, but you could also be very, very unhappy. And I feel as a photographer for to have a career that lasts a very long time, that you find very fulfilling, I think you really need to always focus on what makes you happy. The type of assignments, the type of projects, the type of people that you work with that can make you happy. So, I think that the road to excellent and creating excellent images is that the days I'm coming home with images that I just think are beautiful, I'm not thinking about how much money I made. The days in which I feel as if though I was very creatively unfulfilled and the job was somewhat of a grind, then I'm very, very much thinking about, let me get this invoice out, and when do I get paid?

Pat Miller: 28:00

So, you talked about following others. You talked about finding 5 people whose art that you like and people that you wanna do work in a similar style. But I've heard you say that, you know, hold on. Things change about every 4 years, and that styles, maybe your favorite photographer, every 4 years, things are gonna switch up. So, what's next? What's the next big change that we need to be on the lookout for?

Ab Sesay: 28:25

Oh, 100% is AI. 100% the next big change is already here, and it's more developed than we know it is and it is definitely artificial intelligent. And it's also dealing with the fact that, you know, there's a different type of celebrity now. Now that so much is so accessible to so many and so, you know, I think the formula for success is changing. You know, previously in the early nineties, if you wanted to shoot, let's say fashion or portraits or even become a director, you know, all the most directors started with music videos and a lot of photographers started with the music magazines. Whether it was Rolling Stone, XXL, Source Magazine, Vibe Magazine. A lot of photographers started there and then graduated to, like, you know, bigger publications such as, you know, Vogue, GQ. And, I mean, you know, Anne Lee Witt started it at Rolling Stone, you know. And then after that, she left Rolling Stone, you know. Mark Selinger came into Rolling Stone. He left Rolling Stone and both of them went on to I guess, what we can call bigger things, you know. I don't know when you say better because, I mean, the stuff they did for Rolling Stone was amazing, you know. And I think what's next is AI, artificial intelligence. I think that one thing that interests me a lot about organizations like PPA is I think that there's something there that's evergreen and that people are gonna get burnt out by looking at computer screens. And I think the need to experience things in person is gonna become even greater. And I think that as a creator, giving people the feeling as if though they were there is going to become even more important. And, you know, what you and I are doing right now, having a conversation or a podcast, these things are gonna become even more and more important. I think that the same way digital took off, but now there's people who are truly passionate about film. I think we're gonna find the same thing where AI is gonna control a huge amount, you know, on the commercial side. But I feel as if though, you know, you're gonna go to workshops and in that workshop they're gonna say, you know, no one can use AI during this workshop. You know, like this is gonna be a completely, analog experience. And I think people are really, you know, I think right now people go camping. I think that, you know, there'll just be a different type of camping, you know, that will get rid of that influence. And so, I think that you know, to be on the cutting edge now, I think you actually need to get out and meet people and form community. I think that's the most important thing. I think that if you're if you don't get out of your basement, I think you're gonna get left behind. So, I think things are gonna be based on real relationship and there's gonna be a huge amount of value in that.

Pat Miller: 31:16

Okay. Look at that. That. What's the next big thing? It's already here. It's AI. Okay. And I'm gonna get left behind if I don't go out and talk to people. That's not where I thought you were going to go. Building those real relationships because you're already seeing now and 12 months in the future where people are totally consumed with the artificial that being a leader in the community space and building real relationships with people, that's gonna be the competitive advantage?

Ab Sesay: 31:42

100%. So let me give you an let me give you an example. How many people have a writer in their life that they're that they love working with? Not many. You know, I think hiring you know, I think writing a really good writer is, 1, is a unique skill. And, 2, I think a lot of people don't realize the value in having someone who is actually a professional writer, you know, do your writing for you. You. And so, a lot of people are now using AI to do their writing and they're building a relationship with a writer through a machine. And as they build that muscle, they aren't gonna wanna veer from that. And so, it is gonna take up some market share. You know, as a photographer, I have clients that love working with me, that love when I'm on a shoot, that love the fact that I can listen and interpret what they want, and we just have a relationship. They like paying me. I like working with them. You know, I I'm excited when they call, and I think that you have to stay in motion or you'll you'll get replaced. You know, my digital writer, if there's something that comes out that's better than chat gpt, it's like, oh, this is better than chat gpt. I'm now moving on. Yeah. Know, I mean, look at the world of retouching. When I started out, a retoucher was probably on the low end, was probably billing around $250 an hour and a single image taking multiple hours. On the high end, I remember there was this Pascal Dangan, if I'm getting his name right, for Box Studios. You know, he had like 3 floors, I think, in the meat packing district or Chelsea somewhere. And I saw an invoice from a retouching job that he did. I can't say who the client was for. It was for 4 images, and it was $19,000. Now you have fast forward, you have a lot of people overseas who started doing retouching for $15, $25 an image. Now fast forward, you have software like Evoto that's retouching images very similar to the way you'd find someone to retouch them overseas for a fraction of a penny. And so, I just think, ultimately, you know, that's one of the things hugely affected by AI. That's why I said you have to be aware of it so that if you're trying to charge certain clients x amount of dollars, you know, for a certain task, that they don't think that you're trying to rip them off because there's a much easier way you coulda done it, you know. And so, yeah, I just think that I think that building relationships has universally always worked out in an unbelievable way for photographers. Period. Point blank. Like, that is your number one resource as a photographer is what you have access to and who you have access.

Pat Miller: 34:33

Building those relationships help us get better. Getting better helps us create better work for clients. And this dedication to hone our creative vision also future-proofs us. That's a really important insight that you're making. That when we are more of who we are and more of what we see, we become more unique in a world where the floor of commonality, the average of graphics and visuals that we see will become easier to produce than ever, but you're still ABB. Only you can shoot what you see, and having what you see be able to come out of the camera is futureproofing. It's a really important insight, and it puts stakes in the ground as far as why it's important to get better.

Ab Sesay: 35:16

A 100%.

Pat Miller: 35:16

Why you need to get better at what you do.

Ab Sesay: 35:18

And can I just say in terms of getting better, you're really, really good at this? As if I think back to what I'm saying and I hear your summaries, I'm like, you know what? Like, you are unbelievably good at this. You know, I'm listening back. I'm just like, man, I should have said what he said. You know? That was a that was a great answer.

Pat Miller: 35:35

Oh, that's very kind. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. I want this show to help people build a more fulfilling business. And I love the input that you've given us about, the fulfill comes from your passion and getting better at capturing the images you're trying to capture. I, because I'm not a photographer, I'm a capitalist. I'm always wanting people to make more money and build a business a 100%. So, where these two things are meeting is really fascinating to me. I wanna close with this. What's at stake for us if we don't push ourselves and we don't really go all out every day, a 100% of the time to become the best photographer that we can be. What's at stake?

Ab Sesay: 36:21

Not having a career as a photographer and or finding that you're in a career as a photographer where you're burning out. You know, I think those are the things that, you know, I did a maternity shoot one time, and the client loved the images, and they came back, and they had a lot of clienteles me. Like, Ab, you should run a business as a maternity shoot. You and I could partner with each other, and we could, you know I can find moms for you? I'm very connected. This person was very connected. And I just told myself, I was like, you know what? Financially, this will be very fulfilling. Relatively easy work. It wouldn't stress me out. But creatively, I wouldn't find it fulfilling at all. You know, it's almost like there wouldn't be enough problems for me to solve in it, you know. I would fear it would become repetitive, and I didn't take the offer, you know. I mean, people still come to me from time to time asking but it's not something that I'm advertising or seeking out, you know. So, I'm kinda I drifted off on that one a little bit. What do you mean? No. I feel like as I was answering you, I was trying to think of back, I was like, what was actually the question?

Pat Miller: 37:21

Well, the let's I'll give you the question again then if you wanna take another shot at it. But the question was, what's at stake if we don't push ourselves to strive to become the best photographer we can be?

Ab Sesay: 37:33

If you don't push yourself to become the best photographer you can be, it's gonna be regret. And for me, the worst thing that I could ever come off a photo shoot with, and no matter how much I get paid, no matter what the circumstances are, when I go back home and I look at the images, I personally need that feeling of, like, you know what? I knocked this one out of the park, and I wouldn't have done anything differently. Like, everything lined up, and I gave this a 100%. Like, I simply gave this the best that I possibly could give it. And I think if so if you're okay with that, then I'm definitely not the right teacher for you, you know. But I think, ultimately, that that's the thing that I wanna live a life in which I truly understand regret, but I wanna have as little regret as possible.

Pat Miller: 38:23

The way you talk about regret sounds like you see your talent as a gift, not as a commodity. I know that sounds simple to talk to a photographer that they see their talent as a gift, but it feels like almost like you feel an expiration date on your creativity or that you feel like this is truly a blessing that you have that you need to take care of and hone. Is that the way you think about it?

Ab Sesay: 38:54

You know, I never I think of it as just being lucky, for lack of better term. I mean, I like I do like the I do like to think of it as a gift, but I feel like I've stumbled too much, and I've worked too hard for this to be a gift. If all gifts were like this, I don't want any more.

Pat Miller: 39:02

No more gifts. Quit gifting me.

Ab Sesay: 39:04

But I feel like I'm really lucky that some weeks I look back and I'm just like, man, I made a living doing that. Like, is that real? Or, you know, people ask me questions or, you know, the fact I'm coming to teach at PPA, it's just like, really? Someone would pay me to do that. You know, I think every time you have those thoughts, I don't know. I feel like, like, if you win the lottery, it's not a gift. It's you feel really lucky. I feel like, you know, I rolled the dice. I won the lottery choosing photography, and I just feel yeah. I just feel extremely extremely lucky.

Pat Miller: 39:35

Ab Sesay, thanks for joining us on The Professional Photographer Podcast. I really appreciate it.

Ab Sesay: 39:39

Pat, thank you. This is really a pleasure.

Pat Miller: 39:42

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of The Professional Photographer Podcast. I'm Pat Miller, your host. What do you think? That was pretty good, wasn't he? Did he inspire you to push yourself to get to the next level? Did it blow your mind when I asked him, what percentage of the time are you thinking about getting better? And he said, a 100%. Hopefully, our conversation today has pushed you to raise your game. And if you enjoyed the conversation, we'd love to hear from you. There are 2 specific ways that you can help this show. First, subscribe to it. If you're on YouTube, hit the subscription button. If you're listening on Spotify or in other places, subscribe to the show. That will help us reach more people. The other thing you can do, and this is really important, leave a comment and tell us exactly what spoke to you. What are you taking away? What did you love that Ab had to say? We wanna know because when we hear what's connecting with you, we can create better shows. It's really a privilege to do this show for you. I'm glad you're enjoying it. I'm Pat Miller, your host. We'll see you next time.