How to Break Into Quinceañera Photography: High-Profit Tips for Portrait & Wedding Photographers

Pat Miller: 00:00

I'm Pat Miller and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. What if I told you there was an opportunity in the photography world that was a lot of fun to shoot, had big dollar potential, and people aren't talking about it enough? In fact, you're qualified to shoot this style of photography if you only knew enough to get started. I'm talking about quinceañera photography, this beautiful tradition when a girl turns 15 and the entire family comes together and you shoot one of the most stunning sessions, an entire day that you can imagine. On today's show, Juan and Abygail Padilla are going to walk us through what quinceañera photography is all about and what it takes to get started and when you do, what it could mean to your bottom line when you embrace it. This is a big opportunity with a luxury potential, and the artwork that could come from it could help change the industry. Juan and Abygail are standing by. We'll talk to them next. Juan and Abygail, welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast.

Pat Miller: 01:09

How are you today?

Abygail Padilla: 01:10

Good, thank you. Thanks for having us on.

Juan Padilla: 01:12

I'm doing amazing and can't wait.

Pat Miller: 01:14

Yeah, well, I'm glad you could fit me in because you're having kind of a cool day because Imaging's happening and News is happening. Come on, you got to share the story you told me because I think it's really cool.

Abygail Padilla: 01:25

So we got our email or like the email from PPA sharing all the things that we need for to share that we're going to be speakers. And one of the things, one of the attachments was a press release, and I didn't know what a press release was, so I googled it and they're like, oh, you just send it to news outlets. I was like, I'm sending it to everybody. So I sent it to everyone, and we got picked up by the news yesterday and we're going to be on NPR today. So. Yeah, very exciting. Yes.

Pat Miller: 01:54

Oh, wow. Congratulations to you both. And this show gets to be the warm-up for NPR, so we'll get you ready to go. So if someone hasn't met you yet, tell us who you are and what you do.

Juan Padilla: 02:07

Definitely. We are a husband and wife team. We do specialize in quinceañeras, but we like to do it in the non traditional sense. We love to incorporate high fashion, editorial emotions. And what do you think, Abby? What do you have to say?

Abygail Padilla: 02:26

For like, the event days we really like to have a more documentary approach which kind of comes from the world of weddings. So, yeah, we're really trying to push our limit or like push the creative limits when it comes to quinceañera photography and just make people feel something when they look at our pictures.

Juan Padilla: 02:41

Exactly.

Pat Miller: 02:43

I want to explore your difference from the traditional way of doing quinceañeras, but I want to help photographers understand if they don't really get the opportunity and what it is. Can we start there? Because I know it's a beautiful transition and something to be celebrated, but explain it like someone hasn't really lived it before. How would you explain what the actual event is all about?

Abygail Padilla: 03:07

Yeah, so quinceañeras are a traditional event that happen with Latin American families. We're both Mexican, but this happens anywhere in Latin America. And when a girl turns 15 and they're celebrating that coming of age, that milestone. It has its roots in like they would marry her off afterwards because they were like, oh, you're a woman. But now it's changed. Times have changed. It's gotten a lot more modernized. So, now it's just celebrating that she's no longer this little girl, that we're going to be acknowledging her as a young woman and that it's the next step in growing up is becoming an adult. So it's a really, really emotion-packed day because it's kind of the result of what comes from the wedding. And Juan and I like to say that there's more love in a quinceañera than there is at a wedding, which is a little controversial, but it's okay. The reason we say that is because if the parents, they come together, they get married, they have this beautiful child, this beautiful girl, and then 15 years later, it's like, oh, my gosh, she's like growing up, she's going on to the next stage. So everybody just loves the quinceañera. Her family, they all come together and pitch in money so that they can have this party. It's a very community-based event with friends and family. They'll have different sponsors that cover different parts of the party. And it's really just to celebrate this girl turning 15, which is kind of crazy. But, I mean, it's great. It's a great industry. It's so much fun. We have such a great time with the girls. So, yeah, that's basically what a quinceañera is. There are long days, very long. But it's like a photographer's dream. Because with weddings, weddings are a lot of fun and we do enjoy doing them, but they're just so, like, there's like no break in between anything. Like you can't really breathe, and like if you miss the shot, you miss the shot. And quinceañeras are a little bit more laid back, so we can actually have a little bit more fun with it. We can get a little bit more creative with the shots because we don't have to be at a location in under 10 minutes. Maybe we have an hour to kind of play around. So it's kind of a photographer's dream. So if you like doing creative photography and events, we highly recommend quinceañeras.

Pat Miller: 05:25

I appreciate you giving us the background about what it means to the family. What does it mean to the photographer that gets hired for one? Is this a kind of fancy birthday party or is this a borderline wedding kind of opportunity?

Juan Padilla: 05:37

Yeah, I think it's kind of both. It is a birthday party at the end of the day, but it's also, it has a wedding budget. So like Abby was saying, it's traditional for the family to come together, the aunts and uncles and all these different loved ones of the quinceañera to share in the budget and create this huge event. So it's not just the family that is putting on this event, which makes it great. And as far as a photographer, we get to explore all these creativity in the lighting and the posing and the energy of a teenager. Right? Because they all have these crazy ideas. And I think the best part about it as well is that we, we have two clients, which is the teenager. She wants to be portrayed in high fashion. A lot of them do. High fashion kind of make her look her best, and then the parents want that more traditional, my child is still a child kind of thing, but showing her in a new light. And I think that's where we could play with all these different styles of photography.

Pat Miller: 06:54

And let's go back to how you do it differently than others because you're talking about high fashion and really making them feel and look special. Is this more Style magazine cover extravagance kind of stuff? Is that where you're taking it?

Abygail Padilla: 07:09

Definitely. I would say that with the pre-event session, which is a session that happens before the event. So it's kind of similar to like an engagement session. The girls will come with their giant dress. It's the first time that they're trying it on. But we always encourage the kids to bring multiple outfits whatever they like to do. We have a lot of girls that Play competitive soccer. I don't know what it is about us and their branding, but so many competitive soccer players and theater kids, which is an interesting niche. So the girls will bring like their soccer ball, they'll bring their shoes, they'll bring multiple outfits. And so just depending on what they want to bring, what they want to do, they let us just really create whatever we want. But definitely, a magazine style shoe is a really good comparison to that because we want to get those traditional portraits. But then the dress is so big, so you might as well just like go crazy and do all this like fun cinematic lighting and super dramatic shots, more classic shots. If you want to practice your range in lighting and photography, I think the quinceañera pre-event session is where you can really, really practice that.

Pat Miller: 08:18

So you have a really engaged young person. You've got a family that is going to cherish this day. We've got a borderline wedding budget, and you get all day to play. Before we talk about how other photographers can do this, this has to be a blast for you two to be able to do this for a living.

Abygail Padilla: 08:37

Definitely. Yeah. I mean, our typical day with them is 10 hours, which is a little bit different than I think like the American wedding world where wedding photographers are ranging between four to eight hours. But I don't know what it is. Latinos like to party, so we're out there for a long time. But even like the getting ready portion of the day is fun because the kids are really excited. We always do, like, a first look with her and her court and her parents, which is kind of similar to the wedding world too, where it's the first time that they see her. The difference is she has like 16 kids in a line with like a giant reaction seeing her in her dress for the first time. But then you also get the really emotional reaction from the parents when they see her in her dress for the first time, which is always like the dad is crying, the mom is crying, crying grandparents and everyone. So it's really nice to be able to capture that and have fun with them. We go to Chick Fil A with them. We'll go to In N Out Burger with them. We've gone to the craziest. We went to the arcade with one set of kids. We just kind of like follow along and get to, I don't know, just be young again, I guess, but just kind of follow them around and have fun. And then the party. This is all before the party. The party, once you get to the venue, it's like hours and hours of them just dancing and having fun. They have robots come in, they have like giant bobble heads and it's crazy. Like everybody needs to experience at least one quinceañera, even if you don't go as a photographer, like go as a guest. And it's fun because it's basically a wedding. Like you said, the budget is the same, but just the traditions and what the meaning is behind it is different. But the party's still good.

Pat Miller: 10:27

Yeah. If you're watching this, you need to go look up their website, and we'll link it into the comments here on YouTube. But you're being kind of humble. Your pre-party sessions can be really opulent. Can you give us a few examples of where you've taken them and the cool things you've done? Because the photos are unbelievable.

Abygail Padilla: 10:47

Oh, thank you. Yeah.

Juan Padilla: 10:49

Yeah. There's a lot of parents that go all out for quinceañeras. We've been to Paris, Mexico City–

Abygail Padilla: 11:00

Guadalajara

Juan Padilla: 10:49

–just different areas and they're just the best places in the world to take photos.

Abygail Padilla: 11:06

San Francisco City Hall. We're lucky, because we live near it though.

Juan Padilla: 11:09

Yeah, we live about two hours away from it, but it's literally one of, like, the nicest city halls in the entire world, I would say.

Abygail Padilla: 11:16

Yeah, it's iconic. There's so many people getting married there every day. But yeah, Paris was definitely like the shoot. And we came about it kind of in a funny way because this specific quinceañera, it's not like they like talk to us, that we want to go to Paris and we want to take pictures there. The quinceañera only wanted to go to Paris. That was her only ask for her turning 15. But then her aunts and her grandma were like, no, you're having a quinceañera because you can go to Paris whenever you want, but you're only going to have a quinceañera once. And so the agreement that they had was that the mom was going to cover the cost to go to Paris and the grandma and the aunts were going to cover the cost of the quinceañera. So then when the mom told us that she's like, oh, yeah, we're going to go in November to Paris for a little bit, and we were like, really? Do you want some pictures while you're out there? And she was like, oh, my God, I didn't even think about that. And she's like, how much is it going to cost? I'm like, fly us out. Fly us out, and that's it. And she was like, okay. And so they flew us out. We were there for like what–two days in Paris and just had the best time with them. We were with her all day. It was freezing because it's November in Paris, and we didn't realize that it's so cold out there. It started drizzling, but it was great because she felt like a model. Like, people were looking at her. First of all, because there's not that many quinceañeras out in Paris. So sometimes people are like, what magazine is this for? I'm like, Vogue. Go away. There's like a video that we have where Juan is taking a picture. And Juan's the type of photographer that it doesn't matter how dirty the floor is. It doesn't matter what thing he has to climb. Like, he's all over the place. He's a very–I don't know what the word is–but he just likes to lay down on the ground basically.

Juan Padilla: 13:07

Anything for the shot.

Abygail Padilla: 13:08

Anything for the shot. So Juan is laying down in the [inaudible] floor, which I don't know how clean it is. And it just rained, right? So it's not that bad. And the quinceañera is taking a picture. And there's tourists taking pictures like all around Juan just taking pictures of her. Like, what is this for? This is amazing. We're like, oh, yeah, quinceañeras. Like, the dress was crazy too, because it's a huge dress. It had a giant train. But yeah, we were with her all day, and we were supposed to do a night shoot. At one point, we're like, oh, we're gonna get pictures in front of the Eiffel Tower. But we had started hair and makeup pretty early. It was probably around 6 am, and then we went all the way until sunset, which was a little bit after sunset. So we were out there at the Louvre until like, 7:30, all day. So it was like 12 hours of photos or the experience of the photo shoot. So she was just knocked out. So we're like, okay, we'll see you guys in two hours. Go back, take a nap, and then eat something, and then we'll come back out. And the mom sent a picture of the quinceañera. She was knocked out. She's like, I don't think she can do the night shoot. Okay. So anytime that anybody wants to do a photo shoot, now we've learned to make it like two days. We weren't able to do a second date because they went to Disneyland Paris and they had a bunch of other stuff that they had planned. But it was great. I think the experience was amazing.

Pat Miller: 14:27

Well, let's talk about the quinceañera itself and the client and what they're getting from you when they hire you. So what do they want out of the experience when they hire you to do one of them? What are they looking for? What is the actual product that you deliver to them?

Abygail Padilla: 14:44

Yeah, they are really looking for photographers that are going to make their quinceañera shine and not feel uncomfortable. And to be 15 is a very awkward age. It's very like–you're very self conscious. So just having somebody who can bring out who she is naturally, make her look beautiful, photograph her in like a really honest way. At least with our clients, they want us to do those weird photos where we're like on the ground and climbing the trees and stuff and getting really creative shots. They really want something kind of documentary style, which is what we like to do on the event day because they're really honest shots. So having a combination of both the classic quinceañera photography, but then also bringing in something new, that's what our clients specifically like look for us.

Juan Padilla: 15:36

The way I like to think about it is I like to make the quinceañera feel like she's the star of the movie. Traditionally, it was more like stiff posed photos. But as we grew as photographers, we understood that these quinceañeras already feel kind of awkward. You know, it's their first time in distress, first time getting hair and makeup done. Everyone's looking at them. So we just make them feel comfortable and the star. That usually makes them really excited for the photos.

Pat Miller: 16:08

If someone's not a part of the culture, maybe they've never even considered shooting quinceañeras before, you shared with me in our previous conversation that a lot of these are done in English. You don't need to be–no Spanish to be a part of this. This is something that you could take on if this is something that interests you. That's widely available almost in every market in America, for sure, isn't it?

Abygail Padilla: 16:27

Definitely. Oh, yeah. Because we shoot a lot of like second, third generation families. And not only that, but also mixed race. So there's families that, we've done like Colombian and Mexican, which is also two Latinos, but then Mexican and Asian and African American and whatever Latin culture. So there's definitely a market for people, especially if they don't–I don't want people to feel like, oh, they have to speak Spanish in order to take on a quinceañera. So maybe there's family members that do only speak Spanish. But when we're communicating, we're communicating mostly in English. But yeah, they shouldn't feel intimidated. Yeah, definitely.

Pat Miller: 17:10

You say that they're different, like they've almost been Americanized, different than they are in Mexico. How are they different in America than in Mexico?

Abygail Padilla: 17:19

I think it's kind of night and day, at least from what we've heard with photographers that we're friends with that do quinceañeras in Mexico. They're like quinceañeras in the US are totally different. Like nothing of the sort. Like nothing is really, I mean, the tradition is similar. They have like the church ceremony and they have the traditions of like the changing of the shoe and all that stuff. But we've really Americanized what it is to do a quinceañera here in the US. So like the going out and eating with the kids, that's not something that you see in Mexico. And that's mostly because the church ceremony is really early in the day in comparison to Mexico or somewhere in Latin America. Usually the churches here can be at like 11 am or at the latest 2 pm, and the party doesn't start until 6, so we have to kill time somewhere. And that's where we're going to the park with them, going to go eat with them, and they don't do that in Mexico because the churches are usually really late, like at 6 pm, but they party till 2-3 o' clock in the morning. Yeah, we're done at 11 o'clock. That's like the latest, unless they have their own ranch or something. And then they'll go on until like 4 o'clock in the morning.

Pat Miller: 18:29

So when you're talking to the client, do they have a say in what they want and what they don't want? And what are the non-negotiable shots? You have to have this one. You have to have this one. So walk us through these are the things everybody gets. But then these are the some of the things that they add on, like going out to eat or going out with their friends or whatever it might be.

Abygail Padilla: 18:47

Definitely. I would say that non-negotiables would be like portraits with parents, with important family members, pictures of her. What else would you say is like a non-negotiable?

Juan Padilla: 18:59

It depends. A lot of people go to church before the quinceañera and some don't. But if there's a church, there's definitely church photos with the Virgin Mary, there's photos with the priest, family photos of the altar, and we like to get those a little bit more creatively. We like to add lights in certain locations to make it look more ethereal. Yeah, I would say the church.

Abygail Padilla: 19:28

Yeah, those are non-negotiables. The important family members, I think is like–the people that help put on the party. You want to definitely get portraits because they're putting in money. They're like, I want to get a good picture, and they dress up really nice. So, of course, we're going to get those shots.

Pat Miller: 19:48

Now that brings a question to mind. If you know that this aunt and uncle are helping to foot the bill, do you kind of love up on them a little bit extra to make sure you get some good pictures of them?

Abygail Padilla: 19:58

100%. Because it's good marketing. Because then, they'll recommend you to other people. Like, whatever you want. Because sometimes the aunts will be like, make sure you get my good side. And I'm like, all your sides are good. But tell me which one you like more. You have to add a little bit of sugar to everything to get the–it's good marketing.

Pat Miller: 20:16

Yeah, that's a pro move. Okay, so if someone's not doing quinceañeras right now, who in the photography universe could easily move into this space because they have the skill, they probably already have the gear? Who might be a fit to take on this market?

Juan Padilla: 20:32

Definitely any wedding photographer or any senior session photographer. A, because your senior session photographers already know how to work with teenagers. And then events for the weddings, of course, we're shooting all kinds of different things, so we know how to manage different personalities. But I think it's just being patient and understanding that that's the direction you want to go. The thing is that anytime you go into a new market, you're not going to start anywhere at the top. Right? So you just kind of have to understand that if you set your intentions that you want to get into this market, you'll get a few, you'll get a couple, and then from there, you can start getting recommended by other family members for other quinceañeras. And that's the beautiful thing about quinceañeras, that you could potentially have clients for many, many, many years to come. Because you start with the quinceañera, then you move on to the senior session from high school and then from there family photos for that particular family and all kinds of different things. So, it's–

Abygail Padilla: 21:38

It could be a wedding in the future.

Juan Padilla: 21:42

Yeah. 100%. Most of our weddings that we get hired for are family members of the quinceañeras.

Pat Miller: 21:48

Wow.

Juan Padilla: 21:48

Yeah.

Pat Miller: 21:49

And these are big parties, so there's a ton of people there. So if you do a good job, everyone sees the photos. What a great opportunity. One thing that you shared was that there's a seasonality to the business, that it's not all months are created equal. There's a season for quinceañeras. Can you explain that?

Abygail Padilla: 22:06

Yeah. So it's kind of dependent on where you are. We're in California. And not in like the L.A. area where the weather's always nice. Right? So we're in Sacramento, where it gets really hot. So for us, our season kind of starts in January and then kind of tapers off a little bit at the end of June because the heat here is unbearable. July-August is kind of like our resting season. So we're going into like our off season a little bit, which is nice. We can breathe a little bit and catch up on all of the quinceañeras that we have to deliver. And then it picks up. When I say that it goes from nothing to every single weekend if they could book you, three days a week or three days–Friday, Saturday, Sunday–for quinceañeras, they would. Because–I don't know–so many birthdays are in September and people are like, it starts to cool down. Not here. It starts to cool down like in October. But they're like 116 degrees. We don't care what, we're going to have the quinceañera. September all the way until November. We've had some December ones, but usually they don't have churches in December because they reserve the churches for all the other events that are going on in December. But it's kind of year-round because there's birthdays all year, and with weddings, it's kind of like wedding seasons, which is kind of the opposite. Right? Like it starts in May, and I think maybe ends in October. But you can book a wedding, I guess, in July and August and then do quinceañeras for the rest of the year.

Pat Miller: 23:33

You've shared that bringing wedding photographers into this space would be valuable. In your opinion, because you're looking for and wishing for a more creative and artistic elevated version of this product. Is that a personal wish because that's how you do it, or you think that the quinceañera market deserves a higher level of photography?

Juan Padilla: 23:54

Yeah, I think it's latter. The luxury market for quinceañeras is enormous. In Mexico there are photographers that take girls from Mexico to Jordan, to Turkey, to France, of course Italy, and all these different places that wouldn't even think of a quinceañera in these places. But the same thing is happening here in LA, as you can imagine, that everything is big in LA. So, same thing. And I believe that the further that we can push and elevate quinceañera market, the more people will see that and also want to incorporate that into their events. So that's where I see it happening in the next few years.

Abygail Padilla: 24:43

Even apart, from like the luxury events, because I think that to be honest, I think luxury events are a little bit easier to make it look luxurious because it looks nice.

Juan Padilla: 24:51

Yeah.

Abygail Padilla: 24:52

But even with like the mid to even backyard quinceañeras, they deserve to have really cinematic and beautiful artistic shots. And I would say it's a little bit harder, right? To make any location look like this luxury experience. But I think that's something that the wedding world has been able to do just because the level competition is so much higher. There's so many more people in the market. So it pushes the market to become better and better because people will choose a better photographer. So that's where I'm like, with quinceañera photography specifically, I think people got a little bit comfortable with the same types of shots, very classic. And there's nothing wrong with the classic shots, but having something that pushes it a little bit more to make it a more interesting image, a more artistic image. So I think that people who identify as like an artistic person but maybe can't–not that they can't handle or maybe they don't really like the stress of a wedding, but want something that kind of allows you to do different types of photography, documentary, portrait, baby photography, because you're taking pictures of the kids too, I think a quinceañera is a really good avenue for them because then they can still get those creative images, get the artistic shots, but still have a long day to be able to do that.

Pat Miller: 26:18

Right now, there's a wedding photographer watching this, and they're going, ooh, I see this is a big opportunity. Give us some steps. What are some specific things they can do to get involved, to take on this market? What would you recommend?

Juan Padilla: 26:31

I think the easiest way is Facebook. There's always Facebook communities in your area that are just specifically quinceañeras. I would start there.

Abygail Padilla: 26:43

Looking for a second shooting opportunity. Just so that you can see what an event day is like. Even shadowing a photographer that, you know that does quinceañeras. I think that that's a really good way, too, because maybe it's a little bit intimidating, like you were saying, it's cultural. Right? So maybe a person that isn't Latino is going to be like, oh, I don't feel comfortable going. But the more and more that you are around us, Latinos, you're going to feel like family, you know? So I think that's a good way. And they'll feed you like crazy. So just be prepared that when you go. I think with weddings, it's like, oh, you get the vendor meal. It's like rice and like a dried chicken breast. Not with quinceañeras. You eat good at quinceañeras. And the aunties are going to come to you and be like, did you eat? And then mom comes, did you eat? Grandma comes, did you eat? And I'm like, if I eat as much as they're asking me to eat, I'm going to leave every event gaining like 30 pounds. But I think that the Facebook option is really good. Second shooting. If you want to go to the next level, then you can start doing expos, because there are quinceañera specific expos. It's definitely a little bit more Latin-based, I would say. So they do communicate a lot more. Like, the advertisements are in Spanish, but when we've done events before expos before we spoke in English, no problem. So that's another option that they can do as well. What else with advertising? Think just like kind of having a portfolio buildup, like styled shoots or something like that, with quinceañeras, getting in communication with boutiques in the area, because there's always boutiques that are looking for marketing materials, makeup artists collaborating with makeup artists and boutiques and quinceañera models that want to model the dresses. So that's another really good way to build a portfolio show that you can shoot quinceañeras, but then definitely do the second shooting so that you can get the experience of the whole day.

Pat Miller: 28:41

Well, another way to get started is to see you at Imaging. Can you two describe what you're doing at Imaging USA? Well, I'm sure we can learn from you there.

Abygail Padilla: 28:48

Absolutely. So we're going to have a class just specifically on quinceañeras and it's going to show people who are interested in shooting quinceañeras, like kind of talking about what makes a quinceañera, a quinceañera. And for people who are wanting to maybe grow a little bit more, we're going to have you push your creative limits when it comes to quinceañera photography. We're going to make people feel uncomfortable and make people want to be better, which is the best thing that you can do for your photography.

Pat Miller: 29:18

That sounds great. Let's give you the last word. Is there anything we haven't covered on quinceañeras and how people should get involved and elevate the photography that's happening at these beautiful events? Anything that we haven't mentioned that you want to include.

Abygail Padilla: 29:31

Hmm. I would say if you do want to get into quinceañera photography, don't feel like you need the permission to, like we were talking earlier, if you want to do it, just definitely do it. Keep pushing yourself creatively as a photographer. Always learn, keep going to these conferences because that's the only way that we get better. Never get too comfortable. That's what we're trying to break is that mold of feeling too comfortable. And that's something that we've also have been guilty of doing as well. Just like, well, this works, and then you just have to keep pushing yourself to do better and better work. But yeah, I think just, I think you guys, I think we have a good understanding of like what quinceañeras are and what do you think, Juan?

Juan Padilla: 30:19

Yeah, I think you've, you've nailed it.

Abygail Padilla: 30:21

You did a good job.

Pat Miller: 30:24

Well, we asked the good questions around here, and what I've learned is that I need to attend more of them because I like to eat and party until three in the morning. I don't even want to take the pictures. I just want go to the parties because they sound like such a great time. Juan and Abygail, thank you for joining us on the show. I really appreciate it.

Abygail Padilla: 30:38

Thank you so much for having us.

Juan Padilla: 30:40

Thank you. Thank you. We appreciate it.

Pat Miller: 30:42

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of The Professional Photographer Podcast. Was I wrong? A really cool sounding, big money opportunity. Yeah, that's definitely something to look into before you go hit like and subscribe and leave us a comment on this episode. That way, we know what one Juan and Abygail talked about that really resonated with you, and it'll help me ask better questions. And every time we get a comment, I get a cookie. So if you want me to have more cookies, leave more comments. I really enjoy them because cookies are good. The other thing is, if you're not yet a member of Professional Photographers of America, you're missing it. Because PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in a sustainable and profitable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership at ppa.com. That's PPA.com. I'm Pat Miller, founder of the Small Business Owners Community, publisher of the Small Business Summary newsletter. Thanks for joining us on this journey. We'll talk to you right here next week. Take care.