How to Find Your Unique Photography Style with Seth Miranda and Daniel Norton

Pat Miller: 00:00

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. Welcome in to The Professional Photographer Podcast. I'm your host, Pat Miller, and we are live at Imaging USA 2025 in Dallas. On today's show, we are continuing the Creative Play series, and this one is a special episode because Seth Miranda and Daniel Norton are on the show. Now, if you've seen them do their thing live, you have an idea of what we're in for. I think I get the first question out, and then we just have an outrageously fun discussion about what it means to have a voice, what it takes to take your talents as far as you can, and we get to hear them riff back and forth for a really entertaining conversation that I know you're going to love. Now here, our studio, presented by Sony. We're using all the best gear. The Sony cinema line cameras are all around me, and the app that they're using to control everything is just incredible. Their Monitor & Control app. If you haven't seen it, you need to see it. They're helping this look good, so you know how talented they are. Seth and Daniel are standing by. We're talking all about creative play. Let's bring them in now. Seth and Daniel, welcome to the show.

Pat Miller: 01:18

How are you?

Seth Miranda: 01:19

Sweaty. Sweaty. I'm exhausted, man. Yeah, I've been talking for six hours. What's up?

Pat Miller: 01:25

Been a full day already.

Seth Miranda: 01:26

Yeah, he's been busy standing around.

Dan Norton: 01:27

I do. I stand around a lot.

Pat Miller: 01:29

Yeah. I heard you were like the guide today telling people to go down this way and turn.

Dan Norton: 01:32

I was like, somewhere over there.

Pat Miller: 01:34

Yeah.

Dan Norton: 01:35

Yeah.

Pat Miller: 01:35

Go that direction. And you've been yelling at people. What have you been doing?

Seth Miranda: 01:38

Well, first of all, I did videos for the PPA channel to cover the show, to show people what the show is. But then I did a demo, and a demo to me is like a punk show. You know, you're on the floor. I don't deal well with people not talking back to me. So quiet crowds freak you out, right?

Dan Norton: 01:53

Yeah, they freak you up. Well, I prefer it.

Seth Miranda: 01:57

Well, half of your crowd is asleep.

Dan Norton: 01:58

That's right. Yeah, it's true.

Seth Miranda: 02:01

Yeah.

Dan Norton: 02:02

No, I hope not.

Seth Miranda: 02:05

Oh, my gosh.

Pat Miller: 02:06

Well, as you can see, play is natural to you, two. And today, we want to talk about creative play. And watching your stuff, it seems like you're not really working, even though you are. It seems so playful. Does that just come to you naturally when you're performing that everyone thinks it's play, even though you're teaching them?

Seth Miranda: 02:22

I work. He gets to play.

Pat Miller: 02:23

You work? He plays?

Seth Miranda: 02:27

No. We're very fortunate to do what we do, honestly, and to get this started. Like, none of this would have happened without Daniel. I just want to put that out there. Like, I know I get down on, like, we have a lot of fun, but I like to think that we're at a level where we're so deep on that, that we can get that. But this is a guy who started doing demos in the middle of a store in New York while it was just a store. There was no room. He was hiring martial artists from down the block to do spin kicks in the middle of the store to show people how to freeze action with strobe. And these rumblings started happening in the community in New York. You'd be on a commercial, white [inaudible 02:59] back would be like, oh, Daniel's going to be doing this on Thursday. Then Thursday became the Pro Day. Thursday was Pro Day at Adorama. So you just gravitate there, and we'd all just meet up. It was kind of like, I don't know. That was like our break room from working all over the city. So you'd run into other guys, get jobs from each other, assist for each other, because Daniel was doing a demo. Then I guess they thought there was something special, so they started putting chairs down. Then they made room. Then cameras went up out of nowhere, like, out of nowhere, they just started streaming this. And I remember going, like, where is this going? Like, it was so new. Streaming was so new. Remember those cameras? Those jank cameras and–

Dan Norton: 03:32

And the giant legs.

Seth Miranda: 03:33

Oh, so weird. But to Daniel's credit, he really felt it was necessary to have this. He really taught guys like me, who are very cutthroat and isolated that, no, it can be a community. Because, you know, when we grew up, people held stuff to the chest. And Dan really taught all of us to pay it forward if you want to have the next. And it took a while for me to understand that. And then he was like, you should speak at the space. And I was like, I don't speak. I just shoot. And he's like, well, I'll pay you. I'm like, all right, I'll be there Thursday, you know.

Dan Norton: 03:59

Well, yeah, because what happens is when you start doing these things, there's a lot of people that will speak who shouldn't be speaking, I'm sorry to say. But, you know, they'll just be like, oh, yeah, I have PowerPoint. Click. But, you know, I saw something right online. But. And when I saw Seth, I was like, Seth would come in, he'd be like, with the speed of Tron packs.

Seth Miranda: 04:16

Oh, yeah.

Dan Norton: 04:16

And you'd be on jobs. And I'm like, you are so knowledgeable. You just need to share that. Right? Because that's it. Like, you have it. You know, you've got all this. Like, Seth comes off tough wherever you see him, but he's one of the most technical photographers I know, and I know a lot of photographers.

Seth Miranda: 04:31

Thanks, man.

Dan Norton: 04:32

He could tear that stuff up. And you look, and you'll be like, oh, yeah, like that's cool because you're doing a special effect or whatever, but you try to shoot that. Like, the technique that goes into what he creates is so rich and so deep. I was like, you need to speak. And you didn't want–at first, you're like, I'll do it, but I won't live stream.

Seth Miranda: 04:49

Oh, that's right. Yeah. Because I was doing all that, that other. Yeah. And I wasn't using my real name.

Dan Norton: 04:55

Little by little.

Seth Miranda: 04:55

I don't want to get into this.

Dan Norton: 04:56

But that's for the other podcast.

Seth Miranda: 04:57

But I will say, like, no one knew how to do a proper demo. Right? And we still see it today. And then when I watched Dan do it, he starts off with a black frame and then builds this. And like for guys like us, we'd be done in five minutes, but we got to make it an hour-long breakdown. And I learned that from him and Joe McNally. And Joe did the line that both of us took where it's like, who's taking a bad photo? Great. You're gonna see a bunch of them right now. And because you gotta show them where it could start for them, because you start off with the finished photo, they don't understand what went into that. So I learned the teaching style from Dan and then I just turned into 30% pro wrestling and yelling. But there was nothing like this when you did this. There was no space. Especially in New York, there was no such thing as a space.

Dan Norton: 05:40

Yeah. And the thing is that everybody is afraid, or some people are afraid that people will think like, oh, no, you took a bad frame or you didn't nail this, so you're not good. So they refine this show of this thing that they're pretending like they're shooting on some level. And I didn't feel like you learned from that. Like, I'd see these videos, guys be like, I put the light here, and then they raise the camera to their face in slow motion. And also this, like, fully retouched picture appears. It's like, okay, fine, but what if you have. Just like Seth said in this demo, what if you don't have that model in that space with that light exactly? It's not going to look like that. Why does it look like that? And then, by breaking it down, you can really show. And we started getting comments that were like, my favorite part of this is when you start going down a sideways thing, it doesn't work.

Seth Miranda: 06:21

The rabbit hole.

Dan Norton: 06:21

And it's like, yeah, well, that's it. Because this is exactly what you do, right? You shoot, you get the thing for the client, then you experiment, you play, if you want to use that term. And that's how you learn, right? That's how you build things on the client's dollar. It's like, let me try something, you know? And then that's basically how you refine technique. But I was just saying somebody earlier that the reason why I do this is because I moved–I was living in Massachusetts. I decided–I write a book. Right? Don't read books. It was like, oh, how to be a photographer in 30 days. So I quit my job. I moved to Miami, thinking I'm going to–I got a nice apartment. I walked in the first modeling agency, they looked at my book, closed it, stood up, and said, why did you waste my time? And walked out. And I was like, I guess I should do something else. And that something else is be a photo assistant. And what I learned as a photo assistant was community, which Seth's talking about. People, like, I literally worked for a group of photographers that shared a big studio, and they would bid against each other, and they were–it was friendly, you know, it was like. And they would work together and send each other work, and they taught, like, they were like, we're teaching you how to do this so that you can be the next generation. And I always felt like that's my obligation now. Somebody did that for me because I learned nothing in school. Well, I learned a little bit in school, but what I learned was in the street with other photographers that shared their knowledge with me. Not thinking I was going to steal it. Right? They shared it. And that's the difference.

Seth Miranda: 07:40

Yeah, but we both worked for photographers over the years that would rip up–back in the day, they'd rip a Polaroid after they shot them because they didn't want you to figure out what their doing because they thought you were going to steal their jobs. But if you worked hard enough, you get like 15 minutes after the clock, and they'd sit down and they'd be like, here's what we did. You had to gain respect. Here, you got a lot of people that watch the YouTube video and going, hey, I'm going to charge you for head shots. And it's like. But, you know, this industry also didn't feel like it was for everybody. So when I was coming up, you'd go to, like, trade shows, and it'd just be a bunch of guys with pocket vests saying big words that were boring as hell, or all they did was shoot weddings and birds or whatever. And you'd be like, well, I don't shoot any of this. I shoot skating and BMX and all this craziness, and nobody looked like me. And I was like, maybe I don't–maybe I'm not supposed to do this. Maybe there is no profession for me here. But once you realize that you just got to find your place now you can type in and find people you connect with. Anyone will show you how to use a softbox, right? But you find the right instructor that's speaking your language that you are on the same wavelength with. And I like to think that me and Dan, while we're like mind, we talk differently. Like, he's way more rational. But I think that's the hardest part for people, is to find where they connect. And even here, when I got told you should check out Imaging, like, what the hell is Imaging? I don't know what any of this is. And I got here and it's like, tucked in shirts, and I'm like, I don't belong here. You know, like, this is not my people. But then you get on the stages and you speak your part and your point of view, and then everyone's nodding their heads and, you know, they might not look like you or came from where you came from, but you're all in the same business of going, I want to do something cool. How do I do something cool now? How do I make a living doing that cool thing I like doing? And we both, I think, feel we owe it to our industry, the way we came up, which I don't think is going to happen the way we did it. And going on these channels, going live, making sure that there's an archive that–I keep saying kids, because we get a lot of, like, college kids at our event space. NYU, New School, Parsons, they're all around there, and you can see that they're trying, but no one's talking to them a way that they can go, "It's hitting for me now," so I guess, I don't know. You feel responsible. I feel like we have responsibility to the game. I wouldn't be making a living. I wouldn't be doing this. And I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for what he did. And I wouldn't be trying to hit levels if it wasn't for guys like Joe McNally that pulled us along. And I keep thinking, like, somewhere out there, we might be doing that for somebody else.

Dan Norton: 10:07

That's right.

Seth Miranda: 10:08

You know, and it's really weird because I'm still a punk and I don't care about anything. Right. So, yeah. When someone comes up to me, like you, I now make an extra living because I had–I'm like, cool. I don't know what to tell you. Good luck. Like, I don't know. It's very weird and awkward, but something's happening out there if we're able to do this for–We're on 15 years now. What are we doing?

Dan Norton: 10:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth Miranda: 10:23

Probably right?

Dan Norton: 10:23

Yeah. Yeah. Around 13, 14 years.

Seth Miranda: 10:25

Something around there. Yeah. Yeah.

Pat Miller: 10:26

Isn't it weird that when you were coming up, no one was teaching, but you were teaching? You felt really isolated. People weren't sharing. Yet today, there's a limitless amount of information. You can learn anything you want, but they still feel isolated.

Seth Miranda: 10:39

Oh, no, there's a lot.

Pat Miller: 10:40

They still feel like they. They don't have the experience of a community to teach them what they need to know.

Seth Miranda: 10:45

There's that, but there's a lot of information, but not a lot of wisdom. You'll get a lot of YouTube videos that'll spit out a bunch of specs and go ABCDEF. But when we go live, I take a lot of honor, and it's gonna be hard, and we're gonna be like, no matter what, I'm coming out of this because we've been through this. Yes, something's going wrong. Something's going haywire. That prototype thing that we got to shoot for that video, the firmware is going to crash, and we got to find a way out of it. We'll get to an end result. I can't stand the videos that are so, like, overly scripted. What happens if that didn't happen? And then we get people in our classes. We have to deprogram and rewire them to be like, that's not true. That's a myth. What channel did you hear that on? Just because it's on YouTube doesn't mean it was vetted, doesn't mean that it's right, and doesn't mean that you've got to listen to it. And I think, don't just listen to us. Watch 50 channels on the same topic and see where the middle point hits. And I actually learned a lot of that because I started building PCs years ago, and I never did. And I watched like 60 channels. And as a guy in another industry teaching, I was like, oh, this guy sucks. That guy's totally paid by that brand. You know, like, let me figure out a midpoint and I mix together the right people to get me to where I got to go as myself. And that's the hardest part for people is don't emulate us or anyone you're listening to. Take it, stand on it, and now build your own. You got to be yourself. And the hardest thing is building a perspective and a style because this is all a language. And if you don't understand your voice, you don't know what you're saying, you're not producing work that's going to hit.

Dan Norton: 12:17

Yeah. That style that you get is a mixture of all the things you've come from. Right? The language is your version of what you see Seth do, what you see me do, what you see anybody do. You've got to take it and make it your own. If you're just copying, you'll never really get there. So again, that comes back to the fundamentals, is like knowing, understanding why, you know, a pizza box works for a reflector. Right?

Seth Miranda: 12:38

I got one.

Dan Norton: 12:39

And it makes a big difference. Right? People don't understand. It's like, yeah, you can use a pizza box, and it's cool because it shows the technique. But why do we buy this piece of gear, you know? And one of the things that I used to do when I first came in Adorama is people would come in and they'd go, I need lights. And I would say, well, what are you doing? And they'd be like, this. And I'd be like, what do you have? And they'd be like, this. And I was like, why do you need lights? And they didn't just didn't know what they were doing. That's how the demo started. Literally me with a piece of paper drawing diagrams going, this is what all you need to do. And they're like, what? Really? And then they'd walk out. And, you know, of course, probably as a retailer, they're probably like, why aren't you selling stuff?

Pat Miller: 13:18

Thanks a lot.

Dan Norton: 13:18

But that's not when–but the thing is, they come back because they realize if Daniel says, I needed something, I needed it because he's not going to tell me to buy something just to buy it. Right?

Seth Miranda: 13:26

That's the thing about. To Adorama's credit, they never said, sell this.

Dan Norton: 13:31

That's right.

Seth Miranda: 13:32

And whenever we get the one comment that I will not stand for is if they call you a shill because you're showing a new product. We get to have fun playing with new products. That's amazing. And I love that I get to touch everything that's out there, make my own opinions, and see what the developers of these things came to be and these amazing, genius engineers. But people don't understand that we don't care what you buy. We care that you don't just buy something expensive and quit next week. Because that's happened. Every day we watch this. That Used Department, we watch these rich guys hang their heads and go, take my blah, blah, blah. But we had a–remember, Lori? So we had a woman who was starting a second life basically. She had tremors. She had a small little Canon, and she wanted to shoot. She showed up to the event space, not to the events. She go grab prints and mouse her way through them and not show anybody. I was like, you know, you should come to the critiques because at least someone's looking at your work. She's like, oh, she came to the critiques, led to the classes. The classes led to her growing. Now she's being a resident in a gallery in Spain, and she moved there. And this is a woman who never thought she was going to have a career in photography her whole life until she was late in life. And hearing her–I love her as an example because that's exactly what we were trying to do. And there's something to the fact that because we work under the umbrella of a retailer. I kind of look at it like, no, we're helping you make better decisions so that you could have gear that has resale value, or you buy it only once or you're buying less than you thought you needed, or, you know, we just have an outlet to send them to. And to Adorama's credit, they never once ever said to us, push this. You need to sell this many of this. We need a quote on that. They were just like–

Dan Norton: 15:13

That's right.

Seth Miranda: 15:14

–keep shooting. Keep getting people amped.

Dan Norton: 15:15

Yeah. And that was really important because part of what I did before even the event space was created what we were calling Adorama Pro, or the Pro Department.

Seth Miranda: 15:21

Right? Yeah, the Pro Department.

Dan Norton: 15:23

And basically, it was about that, like it was about, let's bring in people that are in the industry that can help people that come in. And my insistence on when I did that was nobody gets a bonus, a commission, anything. And they were totally fine with that because they were like, yeah, this is about education, this is about building a community, because people will buy stuff. You're here. You want a camera. You walked into a camera store. Why not talk to somebody who's not trying to push it on you? And I think that's really one of the things that even though, like you say, we run an umbrella of a retailer, we're not there to sell stuff to you. We're there to show you how to make the best possible images you can make that you want to make. And that's really what we're there for.

Seth Miranda: 16:00

But our point of action is trust, right?

Dan Norton: 16:01

Yeah.

Seth Miranda: 16:02

Most of the reason I shoot–I don't know about you, but the most reason I shoot live is to be like, no, I'm not just giving you some process stuff that came one out there. You're looking at me. Remember the one of the demos I did in the old event space was a shutter drag demo, and it ended up being a two page spread in Rangefinder. Meanwhile, every time we shoot demos, we're like, we're probably gonna delete these photos, but we're not playing games. And I want them to see that what we're doing. And then when we say this is gonna happen, if we do this and it happens, I got their trust. We're not trying to be popular because we're not working. But we're not out there selling presets. We're not out there trying to grow numbers. We're out there–I think you're on the same boat. Street cred is everything to me. Everything. I will not break a reputation I spent my entire life to build for something stupid.

Seth Miranda: 16:49

And I may take this way too seriously, but we've both sacrificed a lot in our lives and we both put a lot of ourselves into it. Any creative that's trying to make a living does that at some point. You sell something off that you love to get that thing. You sacrificed your time to do that thing. You got that extra job so that you can get that thing. It's never ending. And you wait for this payoff. And sometimes the payoff is just someone come up to me like, I really believe in what you're saying, and I trust your opinion. I trust you. It's like, that, I don't take light. I don't take light

Dan Norton: 17:18

Yeah, 100%.

Pat Miller: 17:18

That's how you sell. Know, like, and trust. You're building all of those things by performing for people live. And you were talking about not having to buy as much gear if they know how to use it. Does that go back to the center of what you're doing when you're doing your live shows?

Seth Miranda: 17:33

You say if you use more lights, you get paid more.

Dan Norton: 17:34

You get paid more if you use both.

Pat Miller: 17:36

That's a rule.

Dan Norton: 17:37

Well, no, I think that the thing is this, right? When somebody would come to me, and if I'm mentoring somebody or they're, you know, they want advice, and they're like, I have $5,000 to spend, and I'm doing this kind of work. And we sit there and talk, and in the end, it's $3,500. And they go, oh, well, I have $1500. What else can I spend? I say, none. Because you have what you need. The day that you walk in and you buy. I'm going to buy a beauty dish. I want to buy a strip bank. I'm going to buy a softbox. I'm going to buy an umbrella. And you don't use any of it. You're wasting your money. Because what if you never want to develop a style that uses those things? Learn with what you got. You'll find a point that you can't do the shot you want to do. Then you learn, why. Why doesn't this lighting, you know, idea work for me? Then you can buy the right thing, or you can–

Seth Miranda: 18:20

Oh, I'm sorry.

Dan Norton: 18:21

–go ahead.

Seth Miranda: 18:22

Or you can fudge–Once you learn principles, you can fudge anything to do anything. But then, if it down to, well, if I buy the correct thing, I shave 20 minutes of setup. Then I'm shooting more clients. Or, you know, when we do high pressure commercial jobs, you get five minutes to shoot. Sometimes you got to do like 100 of the same thing. Then that's when that's worth money. That's when it's worth it to you. Or if they come to you and say, I have $1500 left over on my budget, what should I do? Is I tell them, save. What happens if that camera goes down? What happens if something–as amazing as this stuff is, nothing's infallible. There's defects all over the place, or sometimes I tell them to buy a backup of something just to be like, you know, if you're serious, there is no excuse. We always say pros deliver. That's what it is. There's no excuse. They're putting me in there so that it just gets done. And I think we take pride in that, right?

Dan Norton: 19:10

Yeah, 100%. That's why, do we take pride in that?

Seth Miranda: 19:13

Sometimes we're such jokes. I don't know what we take serious anymore. I don't know.

Dan Norton: 19:17

Well, I think that is the thing, right? There are certain projects that if they hire some photographer, let's say it's not experienced or whatever, and they mess it up, they didn't lose a lot. Right? The process of just cranking it out or they're just hiring guys by the day. But when they have you come in to do a job and there's a set to be built, there's a location to be rented, they flew people in, you know, then it has to happen. And that's what makes a pro. And to be able to do it, and in order to be able to always get it done, you have to understand the fundamentals. And that's really it. That's why we always go back to it. You know, people ask me like, you know, you do so many demos, like how do you come up with ideas? And I'm just like, I just re-title the same demo.

Seth Miranda: 19:54

Don't tell them. Stop, no.

Dan Norton: 19:57

No, it's the truth. Because every demo is the same. The demo is always the same. The demo is, I'm here in front of an audience. I'm teaching you how to make an amazing image. That's the demo. What is the image of? I don't know. A cup. It's a model. It's this, it's that. It doesn't matter. The demo is that. The demo is teaching you how to understand light, and light is the same. I set those as light is predictable. Right? If I take a big softbox, I put it close to this cup. It's the same thing that happens when I put it closer to your face. And as soon as people understand that, it really opens up their eyes to what they can do. When I had my first encounter in Miami and realized I wasn't going–I had to photo assist, one thing I did not do was only assist fashion photographers because if I shot a lot of fashion, that I want to be a fashion photographer as a fashion photographer for many years and, but what I didn't do was that because, first of all, I was broke, and I was like, I need to do stuff. I work for food guys, product guys, wedding photographers, everybody. And what I learned was that's a really good thing to do because you learn so many different techniques. You understand why you might want to do different things. You know, why light is the same, but how you use it is different, depending on what you're shooting, you know? And I think that's super important. I think that having a focus when you go out there commercially is important, but learning lots of different areas, it will really strengthen you overall.

Seth Miranda: 21:07

Yeah, I assisted a lot of product guys when I thought it was the most boring thing on earth. But it led me to one, being able to always pay my studio rent because people could ship me product. I could shoot it overnight. I don't have to worry about call times, nothing. Honestly, it was awesome. I just played, like, hardcore and, like, ate all the whole time and just, like, walked–you came in one time. But the other thing it taught me was, and this sounds crazy, but I spent the last decade and a half in the special effects industry shooting zombies, creatures, aliens. That's not skin. That's product. That's latex. That's paint. That's gleaming stuff. That's sticky stuff. It just happens to have the emotion of something underneath it. So, be able to mix the portrait with what I learned from shooting surfaces and substrates. I was able to make a pretty–I don't–I had a standout career. Like, I was able to separate myself. It wasn't just pretty girls and pretty dresses and pretty rooms. No offense. I don't know. Whatever. How many pretty stuff do we need? But it's hard to make people want to look at grimy stuff, or hard to look at stuff enticing for you to be part of. And that's what I learned from assisting everyone else that was in portraits. And to be able to combine that, like, it hit me so hard at once. And I think that's why I took off in that career because everyone just thought, oh, it's horror. Here's the light from underneath. Yay. It's like, no.

Dan Norton: 22:24

Well, right. And as you mentioned, like, pretty girls. I mean, I was a fashion photographer. People will be like, oh, I can just put a, you know, a strobe in the thing on the beach. And I'm shooting fashion. And you realize that that's cool for a YouTube video, but that's not the real industry. And people that are in the industry will understand that you're not there because you don't actually fully understand it. And that's it. Like, Seth understands horror. That's why. And the special effects, you see in the way he lights. This story is going through his head, and he'll say it, and that's what you need. And when I'm shooting fashion, there's a story, right? It's not just about a pretty image of a thing. It's about the story of the thing–

Seth Miranda: 22:57

Substance.

Dan Norton: 22:58

–and that's what elevates the work, and that's something that you bring to it, right? So we can teach you as much as you want about putting the softbox here over and over again. But the demo is different because it's the story that's going on, and that's what we're pushing.

Seth Miranda: 23:09

And we can't teach taste levels. We can't teach perspective. We can't teach point of view or style. Like, you really have to own it. But I think the hardest part for people is to understand who they even are as a creator, to even know what they're trying to say. I mean, we just did that demo, and I was just like, some of these people just got so caught up in the light. Like, no, you're shooting here. This is, all right, you're shooting here. You know, what is the light doing with what you're trying? Don't think about what you're shooting with. Shoot. Understand what you're shooting. And the first thing you gotta ask yourself when you're gonna go approach something is, what is the shot? Is it her makeup? Is it her? Is it a scene? Is it a portrait? Is it a reality? Is it a fantasy? What are we trying to shoot here? Because you're gonna–it's all a language. And what's the point of talking out of a million sides of your mouth when no one's gonna understand it? And we're in an era where people are swiping in three seconds. All this money, all this time goes into it just to swipe away. You want them to have something to bite their eye into. You want them to start remembering it. You want them to wait to see your next image. Because you don't have just someone who saw your work. You have an audience.

Dan Norton: 24:10

That's right. And what's interesting, too, about that is I noticed in your demo, when you talk about people in the light is that Seth's constantly in communication with the model as I am while working. And that's one thing that you can learn by watching somebody do it live that you don't learn in the video where they just go, it's a finished picture. Like, you can see how you should be. Like, none of this pose book from 1975. Put your hand here, turn this. I know people love that stuff. But the reality is every single person you shoot is different. That exact pose in that magazine is not going to work on that person. How do you make it work the best you can? How do you make that light work when somebody comes to you and goes, here's a shot for magazine. Make me look like this. And they don't look like that. Right? What you want to do is get inside their head to see what they're really after and create the best possible image of them that you can. And in order to do that, you have to–I always say, if you're a people photographer, you got to be a people person. That's the first part. Big flat light will be fine if you can get an amazing emotion.

Seth Miranda: 25:03

Yeah, but don't you think we always know that we're setting an example? Like, we have to do proper safety. People have to pick up. And not only pick up the details, but, like, subconsciously absorb it. Like, oh, the sandbag goes on the tall. I got it. But I take that real seriously because I don't want anybody watching myself. Don't you think there's also something, like, they watch us because they just want to stay in the headspace of shooting, just so that if they're not out there doing it every day, just to stay in the language, in the mode and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, sometimes when I have a dead season, I'll watch guys that I respect. Like, I love watching Ab Sesay, of course, Joe, and everybody else that, like, you know, I like listening to Berdjay. David, I call him Berd–David Bergman all the time. And I also feel very privileged that we are around people of this level that I consider colleagues, but they're not inaccessible. You can type their name in and stay in their headspace and pick up because you'll find videos, man.

Pat Miller: 25:57

Yeah, well, you guys are in New York for the rest of the planet. That's not in New York. They get to be in New York by watching you.

Seth Miranda: 26:01

There is no other planet. There's nobody else.

Pat Miller: 26:02

By being there to see you. Like, that's their chance to get close to how you work and how you think. It sounds like you're steering the conversation towards believing in yourself and, like, having something to say that it's not just technical expertise, which they learn from watching you, but also, like, watching you think out loud and direct helps them find their own confidence. Is that true?

Dan Norton: 26:25

Yeah, I'd say so. I think that that's it. When you see somebody–that's why, I mean, I was fortunate that I didn't immediately start getting jobs shooting models I thought I was going to do from reading the book, right? I worked with photographers. I saw how they did things. I saw they worked with clients, how they set up shoots, how they dealt with problems, how they worked with models. And by doing that, I learned. And I think that's what people can kind of learn. And that's why we like the live version, you know, because, again, I'm not afraid. I am not afraid that somebody watching my video is going to say, oh, well, now I know how to do Daniel's lighting, so I can take all his clients. If I thought that, then I shouldn't be shooting. It's like, you can know everything I teach you. And I still have my clients because I still have me and you have you. Right? That's basically it. Everybody has their own personality that they bring to the table, and that's really what you're selling, what you get in of–even if you're shooting product, it's not always just about shooting a person. They're just amazing product photographers. I look at them, it's like,–

Seth Miranda: 27:20

They're psycho. They're all psychos.

Dan Norton: 27:22

I used to share a studio with the guy, and I swear he would spend three days building a set–

Seth Miranda: 27:25

It's amazing.

Dan Norton: 27:25

–shooting Polaroids because this was back before digital. And then be like, nah, and take it down, like, just shoot a roll of film. But it's like, no, it's not perfect.

Seth Miranda: 27:32

No, no. When you get a real hardcore product guy to shoot a portrait. Oh, my, yo–

Dan Norton: 27:37

They're using, like, fingers.

Seth Miranda: 27:40

Like little tiny dots. And I'm like, bro, she's gonna fall asleep. Like, what are you doing? But it's also amazing to see their attention to the detail of the light. And then you realize, like, actually, it's too clean, man. I actually don't believe this image anymore. And beautiful. Thank you. But I don't know, man. And I think we're also dealing with a world that they don't know where they even want to go because they look at images–and I'm not trying to throw shade. I don't know what camera to look at. I'm not trying to throw shade, but they'll walk through here, see giant posters of over-retouched painter things that aren't even photos anymore, and go, is that what I'm supposed to be? Is that the shot I'm supposed to strive for? And that's dangerous. They're not even getting a chance to get their perspective or style because they think that's the end goal because it's shoved in their face non-stop. What I like that what we do is every time we shoot live, someone goes, what preset are you using? We're not. This is just light. Oh, well, how did you? Are you retouching something in? No, this isn't a real-time retouching. We're just lighting to not have crazy texture in the skin. Like, we've been through it, bro. I did one demo. Remember? One demo I did before we built the new event space, I shot my own mother, right? I said, it sounds so bad.

Dan Norton: 28:51

Actually, in Brooklyn, it's okay.

Seth Miranda: 28:52

But I said I got her a makeup artist to make her feel better because she's going to be in front of a crowd, but I want to see every wrinkle I put on that woman's face. But I didn't want to make her look bad. I just wanted to look like my mother so that when I see this image, I know what my mom looked like. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people are going to strive for putting out work that they're not going to even know what their grandparents looked like. Or at some point, it's going to look like, what did humans look like? I mean, and I fear that. And that's why I think the shooting live is another step to being important. And I wouldn't have it any other way. Me and you both get all bent out of shape if it's scripted, and we're like, yo, like, just give me the thing. Turn that on and let's go. I do everything in one take. I don't care what happens because I'm going to be on the next thing. And if I can't be authentic, then when you see me in person, what the hell am I? I got to be like, I got. I'm sorry.

Pat Miller: 29:44

You get a beep.

Dan Norton: 29:44

You know, on that note, I mean, I think it's super important because one thing that we have is that every person who comes in front of your camera is going to say, "Oh, I have wrinkles." Or my–

Seth Miranda: 29:54

They hate something.

Dan Norton: 29:54

–you know, "My face is like this, or I don't like this." And your job as a people photographer, a portrait photographer, is to let them understand that they're beautiful the way they are. Right? And not like the–remember, I went off on that one guy because he was like, what do you do if somebody has a fat face? And I was like, what?

Seth Miranda: 30:08

Oh, no. He wouldn't stop. He's like, what about a double chin? What about a big nose? Like, who are you around? First of all, right?

Dan Norton: 30:12

But it's like, here's the person in front of you. They're basically opening themselves up, right? It's very, you know, scary for a lot of people to be that open and be photographed. You have to look at them and find something about them that you find. Because everybody has something, right? That makes them a beautiful person and capture that. And if it's wrinkles, if it's scars, if it's everything else, that's awesome. Let them understand it's okay. And they don't need to be completely retouched. Learn that first.

Seth Miranda: 30:41

That's a portrait photographer, though. A lot of people think portrait photographers are, like, "Just make them look beautiful." It's like, listen, you got to make them look like that person so that they portray that person. I don't know. A portrait portrays the person. Crazy, right? And how about the fact that when I see that person in real life, I almost feel like I've already met them? That's a portrait photographer, not this let's smooth out all this, put a bunch of Vaseline on, clear the eyes. Did you know that women don't have pores anymore? Apparently, I didn't know. I didn't get this memo. There's no pores or blood vessels anymore. I didn't know this. I didn't know we evolved. But if you get them to a place where they're the best version of themselves and they still feel like that's the human–that's why headshots for actors are so important. You give them the best version of themselves, but they have to look like that person in the headshot when they walk in the room, otherwise they are not getting that gig. Portraits, you want to feel like that person–the best portraits you've ever seen are the ones that, no matter how famous they are, you feel like right away you can recognize them, you can feel them, you can feel where they're at in their life. And then, you know, when they pass away, you go, I feel like I knew that person. You know? Portraits are so connective. And I think a lot of new photographers, or even just ones that never hit a style, never get that. If you ask any high-end portrait photographer, they say, "Oh, the lighting, secondary. The lighting–I don't care if it's a beauty issue or whatever. That's like, I just need this to happen." You know?

Dan Norton: 32:01

Yeah. No, and that's really interesting because one of the things that I thought it was really funny was I used to shoot for a lot of agencies in New York, and they would call me, they'd be like, "We love when you shoot new models because they look like they look in your pictures." And I thought, well, that's a weird compliment. But then I'd look at other people's shots and I'd be like, oh yeah, like what are they doing here? Like this is what the person looks like. And as a model or an actor, you're trying to sell what you look like, you know, what you're capable of. But as a new model with the fresh shots, that's what you're trying to sell. Right? And that's what I decided to master because it's what I like. I want to bring out what's true in a person when I photograph somebody. I don't want to create something fake, you know, unless that's what I'm doing. Obviously, sometimes that's what the shot is.

Seth Miranda: 32:42

Don't you think like, I think the vision both you and me fell into porch is like it's always different.

Dan Norton: 32:47

Yeah.

Seth Miranda: 32:47

And then you kind of pull up the–okay, this person had this type of skin, this type of, blah, blah, blah, and then you develop these skill cards like a Rolodex. And so when the next person comes in, like got this, like it's what I do with the special effects. I'm like, well, it's not a cartoony zombie. It's more of a walking dead zombie. So I'm going to go this way, so it's warm tone. Well, that alien is definitely from an aquatic planet. So I'm going to need to make it shiny. So we're going to go with something, specular highlights. I pull out that card, right? And then it's like, oh, it's an old age makeup. Well, I don't want to make it look like it's ridiculous old age on a young person. I don't want to see seams. So I'm going to go with a softer light. But then I'm going to pull that light so that I still have gradation. But I'm going to pull out texture, and that way we're still going to see the wrinkles I put in, but we're not going to see the full point of the edge of the prosthetic. Done. That's that card. And we just keep on pulling those cards out. And I think that's the fun part, is we're kind of playing a card game the whole time. I see, you know?

Dan Norton: 33:32

You know where to start, Right? That's your starting point. Right? You've got all these, like, spaces you can start from. And that's where practicing testing, shooting your, you know–

Seth Miranda: 33:39

Testing. Yeah, testing.

Dan Norton: 33:39

–everything else, getting a feel. So when somebody sits in front of you, you're not just starting from scratch. Right? You have an idea of what it'll look like, and then you sculpt around the person. You work it, depending on what they're doing, and that's really the key.

Seth Miranda: 33:50

But this doesn't, like, stop at any level. Just to give you an idea, like, Joe McNally came to Imaging a day early, and he was like, "Seth, I haven't shot in, like," I'm not kidding. He was like, "Two weeks." Like, what? And he's like, "I don't want to get rusty in front of this class. Let's get a studio space for a few hours. Let's bang out a couple of looks, because I want to show them shots I did yesterday not from the 70s." And he was very adamant about it, but he, too, even after traveling the world for decades, 70 countries this guy's gone to, and he still didn't feel like he was ready to do a demo for people because he hasn't worked out in a minute. I mean, what? Joe, you're a psycho. I love you, but you're a psychopath. And I think it's amazing to have people around you that you constantly learn from. And I learned, forever, always be around people that are better than you, because you're going to get complacent, always strive. And me and him, we share a studio in Manhattan, and I think we both batted things off each other. I mean, remember when you hated that soft scoop thing? And then I was like, I gotta use it. Oh, I'm going to. And then he's using the thing. Anyway, just being in an environment can be enough to keep you going and get you to a place that you didn't even know you existed from. Like, if you look at wherever we were when we first met, I mean, whatever we were shooting was not where we are now, especially technology changed. But whatever. You have to be around people that make you want to shoot. You have to be around people that stop making it feel like work or that you can't, or that you're on the wrong path, or someone that you can just bounce off of as a soundboard and not in your own skull, bouncing around in an echo chamber. The worst thing you can do is not have someone look at your work. You need more than your own eyes if you're going to have a vision. Oh, that's a good one.

Dan Norton: 35:26

Yeah. No, no, no.

Seth Miranda: 35:26

That's a good one.

Dan Norton: 35:27

No, no. And you're absolutely right, and that helps kind of going back to what you said at the beginning about–I don't know if that was before we started recording–I guess you'll add it back in. You are recording.

Pat Miller: 35:35

I think we started recording.

Dan Norton: 35:37

How about it? Not like feeling like work now. That, of course, it does feel like work. We work hard, but at the same time, this is our life. When you're a photographer, your job is not being a photographer. You are a photographer. That's what you do.

Seth Miranda: 35:49

Damn, that's good, Dan.

Dan Norton: 35:49

It's just in you. You're always a photographer, and the more people you're around, the more you kind of embrace that you're around people like you, you know, your clan or whatever. Right? Everybody here is a photographer, and we're all going for the same thing so we can learn from anybody. Somebody who's brand new could teach me something very easily, you know? And sometimes, somebody will say that, there'll be a demo, and they'd be like, "What if you do this?" And I'll be like, I don't know. Let's try it, you know, and to not be afraid of that at any level, to just try stuff and know that, you know, going back to the Joe McNally thing, where he's like, you're gonna see some bad pictures today because I'm gonna shoot through this and show you the steps. That's what we're all gonna do, right? We're all gonna work our way up to create that image that we're super proud of. That is the handful of images that really defined us.

Seth Miranda: 36:31

Yeah. But I think that confidence to fall in front of people comes from having so much succession that they respect you for that. They're like, "I'll let you off on this one. It was a rough shot." And then you figure it out and get to the end and you're okay. And as long as you get to an end result, that's worthwhile. But I think a lot of people, especially if they're going to start teaching or doing what we're doing here. They have to have a track record of being able to pull off things, not by luck because they wanted to. And then you can fall and fail. It's hard to have confidence. I just don't care, man. I don't care about nothing. I don't care. I don't get. I never–when have you ever seen me nervous about anything? Like, I don't care what's going to happen? Oh, I'll wake up tomorrow, like, what? What's going to happen? I'll find someone else that wants to shoot. It's okay, you know, but respect is everything. And I think that's one thing me and Dan have always had, even though we totally destroy each other. But I love that. I feel very fortunate that I got a guy at Dan's level as a colleague, and I hope people can find that. And I think that's what this show does, is every class I have, I think you run into people that feel so isolated, that don't even know if they're doing things the right track. And it's so sad and dangerous sometimes. So we both started Discord servers so that people can have a 24/7 place to talk, share work, and I think that's what our live streams are. Every time we start, like, "Hey, from Norway, from this." It's like the same people. We know exactly what they shoot and what they shoot with. And I hope that people get that from here somehow. I don't know if there's a way for them to stay in touch after the shows or if they exchange, but the faces change when they hit that floor. The faces go from walking in there like this to when they're at a demo like this. And then I'm like, yeah, you're–what's now. You know, it's like, you know, they're just in it. And I think our job is to guide them to a place where they stick with it, don't have fear from it, don't feel like they need to go broke, feel like they're embarrassed about anything, and just go forward and get better a little bit each time and incrementally to a place where they enjoy it. Crazy idea, right? Just like it. And don't feel judgment. Crazy idea. Just go shoot what you want. Who cares? That guy doesn't have the right answer either. Trust me. Forget about it.

Dan Norton: 38:35

That is 100% true. And you have to find your own vision and you have to stick to it. Like, you have to. You have to know that you're right. There's a certain confidence in it. Just talking to somebody the other day who was a photographer for a long time, and they said, you know, I didn't have a backup plan. And I remember that my dad said, "Oh, you know, go to business school, so you have a backup plan. And I said, I'm not going to do that. Because if I have a backup plan, I won't be a photographer." Because it's not easy. It's going to be hard. It's going to be a struggle. But I am a photographer. It's in me. I know that I will make this my life somehow. And that's how I did it, you know? And that's it. You know, you go through ups and downs, but you got to be confident. You have to know this is for you. Whether you're doing it on the weekends, you know, as a part-time thing, or you just love doing photography. You've got to make the sacrifices, you got to put the work in. But you should love doing it. You should love the sweat. Like when you're working, when Seth's out there killing himself, I know he's loving it, you know? Even though he's like, "I'm dying over here." It's like, I know that he loves that. Because when you see that person in the audience, all of a sudden, they're just like, "Whoa." You know, because again, they're walking around this trade show, and there's beautiful booths, all this cool technology, and it's like, 'I want to buy this camera, I want to buy this camera'. But when they see somebody actually stand there in front of them where they can see the model, they can see the photographer five feet away from them, creating a shot right there, that's something completely different. It's a different world.

Seth Miranda: 39:51

I don't think it's that. No, we both sweat up there. Like, it's tough.

Dan Norton: 39:56

Well, no, but I'm just saying that I think that that's huge. Like if I walk by a booth and somebody showed me a PowerPoint or they're fully processed images, that doesn't inspire me the way that seeing Seth or me or whoever is just doing it. You know?

Seth Miranda: 40:07

Don't you think that sometimes we're killing ourselves live? Because what was it all for if not to prove we can do it right now?

Dan Norton: 40:13

Well, yeah, of course.

Seth Miranda: 40:14

And also, I think. I don't know how you think of it, but sometimes I was like, all right, it's time to test myself again, you know, like, it's not for them every time. Sometimes I'm–like the demo I'm doing here, I did for the first time in Louisville, and I was like, I don't know what's going to happen on this one. And even a guy came up to me today, he's like"You said you were going to do this and that demo." And I thought, man, this is going to be a mess. But it was awesome. I'm like, cool, because I said it to a bunch of people and they all thought it was going to be a mess, too. You know? And a lot of stuff that I was going to fall back on on Plan B, he knew about, and he's like, "You didn't even need to do that. That was great." But you had a killer demo also. I mean, we were on fire. Like, last year was sick. And, like, you, me, and Joe were just, like, shredding. I think we all were. Like, we had dinner that night. We're just like, for us, too. Even though they think, like, we just get up there, go home, and just go. Like, we were in that dinner, like, sweating, hunched over, and we're like, yeah, but like, we just nailed it. Like, we just destroyed, like, we made an impact. Like, I die tomorrow someone remembers, you know? And I think, you know, legacy is everything, and nothing's going to last forever, but everything we do, can. Everything that we put out there, can. And in a world where there's images non-stop, you can get to a place where your images infect someone's brain to a point where they do something else that emulates it, and you started a new trend. It's just like, man, you know, sometimes I see people emulating something we do, and I'm like, they're ripping us up. And then I'm like, you know what? No. Like, I was in that dude's brain. Like, that's sick. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know if that makes sense.

Dan Norton: 41:37

No, that one–I love that. You know, it's like, and again, I think the longer you do this, the more you're okay with it. I think when I was younger and I was, like, trying to make my way and I would do something–

Seth Miranda: 41:46

Don't steal my job.

Dan Norton: 41:47

–be in some magazine, and also I see somebody else, I'm like, did they just do what I did? You know, it's like. But yeah, of course, they did, because everybody's trying to move forward. But I did it first, you know? And even that means that I'm making a difference, right? I'm spreading my vision.

Seth Miranda: 41:59

Nothing's new. Get my favorite.

Dan Norton: 42:01

My favorite thing about that was. So this is like–I know everybody loves to go out there now with their digital cameras and their big old Octabox and make the sky dark. Well, when I was 20 and I was living in Miami, and I'm shooting. I took a Norman 400B again. And I went to the beach–

Seth Miranda: 42:13

Yeah, didn't you get electrocuted from that thing? Yeah, you did.

Dan Norton: 42:15

–and I shot a model. The sky was dark blue. And I went to show one of the photographers I worked for that was a fashion photographer. And I look at the shot, and he looked at me. He went, "Oh, yes. So, you used a flash outside. Isn't that 1975?" You know, it was like, wow. Okay, so nothing is new.

Seth Miranda: 42:27

Nothing is new.

Dan Norton: 42:27

He's like, yeah, I had to run extension cords 200 feet to the beach, but I still did it.

Seth Miranda: 42:31

Yeah. I think it's important to check the ego, and I think it's easier for photographers to get egos really quick. It's like because I think they're in this ocean of other people. And it's like, cool, bro. We're all doing this. Like, shut up and have some humility about it, because in the end, you're not doing anything special. But you can be consistent at a level, and that is important.

Pat Miller: 42:50

Well, and it's building your own legacy. But it's also you can get the legacy for your client. If you get the image of the person that really expresses their personality. They live forever.

Seth Miranda: 43:00

That's true.

Pat Miller: 43:00

So it's not just what we're doing and how we express ourselves with our confidence. If you do the right thing for the right person at the right time, that might be the shot that defines them to their family.

Seth Miranda: 43:10

Well, I mean, your wife's a photographer. You probably see these people all the time, like [imitates sounds].

Pat Miller: 43:13

Oh, absolutely.

Seth Miranda: 43:15

And they're civilian. We call them civilians. If they're not in the game, they're civilians. So it's like, they don't even understand what images could be. And they don't even understand how much work went into that, probably that shot. But, you know, civilians are–it's our job to take away the fan. How many times have you gotten reference images like, that isn't even a photo anymore? We're not doing that. Or it's so retouched or CGI, or now, oh, that's AI. Oh, boy. She's got seven fingers. What are you doing? You know, we're not doing this.

Dan Norton: 43:45

Special effects.

Seth Miranda: 43:46

You know what's funny is when the special effects kids go, "Can we do something like this?" I'm like, that's my image. Where'd you get that? "Oh, Pinterest." Like, why are my images on Pinterest? You know? But it's really cool that you're at a level that has inspired someone to want to find a way to have that in part of their world, of their life, or whatever. And, you know, I think when you have someone that's used to being photographed, it's not special to me, because they'll be on the next one and the next one. But when you get those people that this image is their 15 minutes of fame for their family, for whatever they're doing, or sometimes you get corporate headshot jobs, and they either hate it or that's their shot for, like, the rest of their life. Because it never changes. So you got to treat every shot like it's worth it. There's plenty of times, I know that you and me both have gone to jobs and were like, it's whatever. It's a junk. Like, throwaway jobs. Like, you don't know. You don't know where it's gonna end up. I shot a job for Ikea that ended up being a billboard that paid me–it was good. And I didn't think it was gonna be something like that. I thought I was gonna be painting sets and doing, you know, being second shooter, but you really don't know. And what we do now, our images can help get people jobs, can help further what they're doing. You know, they need to be–you know, perception is everything, and then we're the filter of that person's perception to the rest of the world. We are setting a tone for whatever there are to this world. It sounds like it's, you know, I'm really making a lot out of it. Watch the next time you shoot someone that's not used to being shot, how long they use that image for. For everything, their avatar on Instagram, on Twitter, on LinkedIn, on everything. You know, we hold a responsibility, whether you like it or not, you know? So I try not to take it lightly, and I try not to take that we're public lightly. And I want to make examples of where things could be. I'll go broke. I won't sell you presets. I don't got merch. I don't care. But I just want to leave this industry better than when I came into it.

Pat Miller: 45:35

Well, and you're both demonstrating that by doing it live, by not hiding your secrets, by starting with a blank image and stacking it and showing how it's done. By publicly failing and flying without a net.

Seth Miranda: 45:46

No, he failed. I'm better. He fails.

Pat Miller: 45:46

But you don't fail. He fails. Yes, it's okay, but we're learning along with you, which is important.

Dan Norton: 45:53

My worse failures are better than his.

Seth Miranda: 45:54

Oh, snap.

Dan Norton: 45:56

No, I think it's really interesting you said that, though, because some of my favorite images of people when I make a portrait is when they initially don't like it. Because there's something about it where they had a perception of themselves, where they think it should look a certain way. And they let you, you know, they feel comfortable that they let you push it to a different direction. They're like, "Oh, no, you can see my scar. Or you can do whatever." And then later on, they look at it and then you see them using it. You're just like, oh, they're like, yeah, that's like my favorite image.

Seth Miranda: 46:23

When I shot Marissa, which is one of our models that we use so much, and she's a doll and I love her, but everyone shoots her to be extremely beautiful because she is, bright blue eyes, fire red hair, amazing. But then when I had her at the studio one night, I said, first of all, I'm taking away the color because I don't want the bright blue eyes and the red hair. And she has a scar on her forehead. And I lit her with no makeup, just like, this is the Marissa that I think is beautiful. Like, she's so gorgeous without all that. Without all the extra glow lighting. She hated those images and remember that?

Dan Norton: 46:53

Yeah.

Seth Miranda: 46:54

And then almost a year later, she wrote me, like, can I get the high res version of those? Because I actually really, really appreciate them. Because she went through a year of being shot by a bunch of yayos that were making her glow and smoothed out and she's like, yeah, that's the Marissa I put out there as an actress and everything. But I think once she realized what images could be, and she's been shot for gotta be what, 10, gotta be 15 years she's been shooting now, and she moved on to become a filmmaker and everything. It's really cool to watch what happens with these people, but it's a special moment when they come to the same center you are at. But it's also special that they trusted you to shoot how you wanted to shoot, even if they're not gonna like it, right? You know, it's tough. You can't be in the same place with your subject all the time. You just can't.

Dan Norton: 47:40

Yeah, 100%. I had this one actor that I was shooting and like I shot–whenever I'm shooting an actor, I always do in the beginning, I go, I'm just going to shoot a bunch of pictures in different areas just to see, like, how light falls on you. And there was one angle that was clearly the angle that I thought, this is you. And she was like, I hate that. Like, with a passion. She's like, I hate that. And I'm like, let me just shoot some. So then later on, she ended up using them and they got her all kinds of work. And she called me back, she's like, you know, I didn't like that. I didn't like that angle because it reminded me I look like my aunt or something like that. And I didn't really like her because we had a bad relationship. And it was like, there's so much psychology that goes into this. It's like, it's not that you didn't think you look good, so you look like somebody who you didn't like, but once you're willing to let that go, this image is actually the better image of you. And you actually broke past this idea that I have to look like this because I watched that video about how to make a good selfie and I'm holding my phone and, you know, it's like, let the photographer help you kind of be free and be yourself. You know, don't fall behind all this, you know, retouching and what you think people should make it look like. You know? I just think.

Seth Miranda: 48:35

You know, we're also fighting cell phones right now.

Dan Norton: 48:38

Well, yes, that's also true.

Seth Miranda: 48:39

All these people that come to us at a certain generation for shots, they're used to a wide-ish angle look with a long arm, face filters, skin tones that make no sense to me. And to that, like, Rankin did a really a really cool project where he took girls, 15 to 17. He shot them in the same flat light against the wall and said, here, Photoshop them till you feel comfortable posting them. And they all end up looking like aliens. There's a dysmorphia going on, and I don't want to add to that. And I don't want people to start thinking they need to always be retouched and need Photoshop. Yes, if there's a commercial client, I'll hand, like, knock yourself out. Give me my check. I'm out. Don't credit me, but I'm out. But if you come to me for real portrait, that's the hardest part. You can learn all the lighting you want in the world, but the hardest thing you learn is when and why. When to use this? Why am I doing this? Why am I going that route? And you've also got to trust that you are getting to an end result that is your end result. People could take decades to get there. You know? And they're going to make a lot of wrong turns. They're going to look at work from like 20 years ago. Man, what was I thinking?

Dan Norton: 49:43

Oh, I know.

Seth Miranda: 49:44

I thought this was amazing. And it's like, well, I'm glad you're there now. Don't stop.

Pat Miller: 49:48

Do you feel that way? Do you look back on your work and think what was I thinking?

Dan Norton: 49:51

Oh, yeah, all the time.

Pat Miller: 49:54

Both of you?

Dan Norton: 49:54

You know, it's really funny because of my kind of background in fashion, my earlier work, to me, was very disposable because fashion is in the moment. Right? And when I look at it, I thought of it as I'm shooting this now for a catalog or a magazine, and in six months, nobody cares about this. So it's interesting to look back and just see, like, how styles change. But then there is a certain point where I hit it, and I'm just like, okay, here's where it began, you know, here's where it truly began where I was being myself always, true to it and it doesn't matter what the image is. You know? And then those images are the ones that stick with me. But some of the ones where I was, like, fighting my way through, especially early retouching–don't ask.

Seth Miranda: 50:33

He was using an actual airbrush in those days.

Dan Norton: 50:35

Oh, my. Do you remember one photoshop, you could only go back like four or something like that?

Seth Miranda: 50:38

They didn't even have menu–yeah.

Dan Norton: 50:39

Well, when they first added the undo that you can.

Seth Miranda: 50:42

There was no RAM to do it. Yeah. There was no memory to do it, so yeah.

Dan Norton: 50:44

So you'd have to keep saving. You do one change and you'd save and then you go back and you'd be like, I don't know if I like, so you'd save a second version of a different way and you'd be like, oh, Photoshop was terrible.

Seth Miranda: 50:51

Well, I kind of look at my old work, like video games. Like, there's all these, like, classic, amazing, legendary video games. You go back to them, like, what was I thinking? This looks horrible now. But back then, that was the next graphics, you're like, this is amazing. And I look back at my old work. It's like, what was I thinking? And then it always comes down to the same reason. I go, I was missing the elegance. I was missing that. Next, what refines this to make it really lit right, actually shot. I got it to good enough. I didn't know where it could go. And was it you or Joe that always says, like, when you think you got it, keep going. Yeah, I didn't do that back then.

Dan Norton: 51:23

Yeah.

Seth Miranda: 51:23

I was like, all right, look how fast I am. Hire me. Here's my card. You know? And now it's like, I'm not getting–no one's getting cards from me anymore. I'm just kind of like, look, here's my stuff. You want me to do it? Let's do it. And that's also important is to put out the work that you want to be hired for. So even if you shot really amazing school portraits, if you don't want to be hired for school portraits, don't put that out there as, like, what you do, you know?

Dan Norton: 51:47

Right. So that's good advice. Yeah.

Seth Miranda: 51:49

Yeah. I mean, it's funny how many people hand you cards. You're like, I don't really–yeah, but I don't actually shoot that. I actually do–yeah. What are you doing, man? Find yourself. Identify yourself. It's just–it's tough. It's a creative world that has no right answer. And you're hoping there's people out there that want what you're putting out there as a creative, and there is no right answer. And you're also going to civilians that don't know what that answer is either, but they think because they went to you, magic will happen. Just magic.

Dan Norton: 52:15

Well, it's interesting you say that, because I got advice from an art director early on in catalogs, because I went to shoot with a catalog photographer, because that's where the money is. And so I had all this cool fashion stuff that I shot, but then I went and shot stuff that looks like it should be in a catalog. You know, silk overhead with a long lens. And I showed him, like, look at this portfolio. I want to get catalog work. And they were like, "Nobody will hire you with that." And I'm like, but this is the catalog. He was like, "Yeah, we assume a photographer can do that. That's basic work. We want to see your style. We'll never use your style, but maybe there'll be a time we'd shoot a cover, and we want something interesting." But artists want to work with artists. What you're doing there is just showing me what everybody else does. So, like, my book became weird, funky fashion stuff that didn't look anything like a catalog. And that's how I got work.

Seth Miranda: 52:55

They want your take. They can go to anybody. They can go to an agency, throw a ball and go, like, I need this look, whack. Get a pro that can deliver that. But they're coming to you. What's your take on this? Just like, what's your opinion? Just like, what's your review on this camera? All that stuff, you know?

Dan Norton: 53:12

And I think you're doing it right.

Seth Miranda: 53:13

Sorry, I keep tapping the table. The audio guy probably loves it.

Dan Norton: 53:15

He loves that.

Dan Norton: 53:15

I think you're doing it right, though, when not everybody likes you. Yeah, I think that's important.

Seth Miranda: 53:19

No, you're telling yourself that.

Dan Norton: 53:21

No, no. I think, like, when you start actually having, like, people that don't like your work and then some people that–now if everybody doesn't like your work, maybe you're doing something wrong–but, you know, if you've got a base of people that like you and then some people are just like, "Oh, that guy's terrible." That's where you want to be. Because now that means you're making a statement. You're an individual, and not everybody's going to like you. If you try to sit in the middle where everybody likes you, you're boring. And you won't ever break that next level and be–stand out really. You'll just get the jobs that they throw a ball against the wall and they take the guy. Right?

Seth Miranda: 53:51

And then people chase technical so easily because there's always a definitive answer to that, like getting rid of this shadow, making this type of light. There's a definitive answer to that. And then it gets boring. And there's people that do, like, really beautiful work that's at a high-tech level, and they consistently put out the type of work that does stand out. But at some point, I don't care what you're doing, stale will hit. You're gonna get stale and people are not gonna connect because they've seen it. They've seen it. They've seen it. I mean, I love pizza. I can't eat pizza every day. Right? You get taxed. Right? So I'm like, I hope people don't get complacent. I'm guilty of that myself. How many times have I done the cold rim lights with the bottom thing? Yeah. So I'm like, I hope people really keep testing themselves. And I keep on bringing this back to this, but I think that's what the live shoots do for us personally is hell, we're demoing, so it could be a test shoot for us. There's a lot of times we're doing a test as a demo, and they don't have no clue. A bunch of suckers, right?

Dan Norton: 54:43

As long as they're training, they're fine.

Pat Miller: 54:46

Well, in both ways, we came back to your own point of view and your own identity. We've now come there twice in the point of the conversation that it's really about what do you have to say in developing your skill so you can say what you have to say rather than copying someone else. And when we watch the show, we learn the technique. I love the conversation today, guys. Thanks for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it.

Dan Norton: 55:06

Yeah, of course. Anytime.

Seth Miranda: 55:07

You just rambled, you know that, right?

Dan Norton: 55:08

They're just going to cut your part out.

Seth Miranda: 55:09

No. Well, that's why I'm on the end. I'm like, just put me on the end.

Dan Norton: 55:11

His mic's not even turned on.

Seth Miranda: 55:13

I know. I feel like I'm in a rubber room, and this isn't even really happening right now. It's all right, though. But I do hope that people know that there's always a place for them in our live streams, in our live chats. If you can't make it to New York, you can always be in our chat. And that's what it's there for. And if you can't catch us live, you can always watch it on playback. There's stuff from Dan when he had hair.

Dan Norton: 55:30

It's true. Yeah.

Seth Miranda: 55:31

You can go watch that. But–

Dan Norton: 55:33

I did have hair.

Seth Miranda: 55:34

I just want to say thanks to everyone that makes a community, because we can't do what we do unless you guys are there for us as well. So it's a 50-50 part for sure. Thank you guys so much.

Dan Norton: 55:43

Yeah, that is 100% true. It's funny because as much as you dread–

Seth Miranda: 55:46

He's trying to close out, man.

Dan Norton: 55:48

Crazy, I wanna talk last.

Pat Miller: 55:50

You get the last word.

Dan Norton: 55:51

Yeah, because, you know, I'm the oldest one here. I get that. So, you know, as much as you want you to put stuff out, like going back to Seth's demo where he wants them people to reply back, I want those comments like, I want people to be in the live stream chatting, talking about stuff, because that means you're involved. You're there. You're not just watching me like I'm some TV show. You know we're real. We're there, right? And even if you're watching it in repeat, we look at the comments and you know–

Seth Miranda: 56:18

And cry together.

Dan Norton: 56:18

And we cry, you know?

Seth Miranda: 56:20

Ah, they made fun of my hair again. I did feel fat that day. Oh, well, there's something for negative–I just want, like, what is this? How lonely are you? Why are you so bored? You know?

Dan Norton: 56:28

But you got it. You know, it's funny, though, I think just–even though you tried to close the show, but, see, you never close it.

Pat Miller: 56:32

No, go.

Dan Norton: 56:34

I have a terrible–

Seth Miranda: 56:34

You say I talk a lot. This poor guy, man. It's like, I got to pick up my kids. Dan, let's wrap this up.

Dan Norton: 56:43

No, but it's just really funny because I think all the time of me working professionally as a photographer, it helped me because again, going back to the story where they were like, why'd you waste my time? One of the very first videos I ever did, I got my favorite comment, because we're Adorama Pro, brought to you by a bum, right? And I was like, well, okay, but this is what a photographer looks like. And going back to what you were talking about, there was this guy who came in. So when Adorama first brought me in, they're like, we're gonna do a photo for the catalog, and they come in. The guy looks at me. He's like, this is the guy. And I'm like, what do you mean this is the guy? And he's like, oh, can we get–and they got the security guard because he was wearing a suit to be the pro photographer. And I thought to myself, I'm sure that some photographers wear suits, but, like, why are we faking, right? Like, this is what I look like. This is what a pro photographer looks like. I'm just a dude. I'm not, you know, I'm not here to, like, I don't know, sell you the latest washer machine. You know, I work. I sweat, you know, and you know, my hands get dirty and. Because that's what being a photographer is. And once, of course, they didn't use a shot of the guy in this. When management showed up, they were like, why'd they shoot that guy? And I was like, well, the photographer you hired to come in here insulted me, so I left, you know? And because that's when I had an ego, which I don't have anymore. But I just think that perception–

Seth Miranda: 57:55

Okay, you just call it confidence. It's still an ego. Like, are you out of your mind? Are you out of your mind? Do you realize how many times you said, but I'm Daniel. Do you have any idea how many times you've said that? Are you out of your mind right now? Yeah. Close this out, homeboy. Like, you gotta be kidding me.

Dan Norton: 58:12

See how he's gotta talk? See how he's gotta talk?

Pat Miller: 58:14

You're trying to get the last word. He's not.

Seth Miranda: 58:17

I mean, look, whatever. I owe a lot to Dan, so I'm gonna let him get this last word. But you're out of your mind if you think you don't have any ego.

Dan Norton: 58:27

All right, well, my final word is. Seth's amazing.

Seth Miranda: 58:29

Falafel.

Pat Miller: 58:30

Falafel. We'll end with falafel. Cool, man. That's fun, guys.

Seth Miranda: 58:36

Holy hell.

Dan Norton: 58:37

Did we answer any of the questions?

Pat Miller: 58:38

I don't even know. Yeah, I asked the first one, and you guys just went from there.

Seth Miranda: 58:41

At some point, I was like, I don't think Pat talked.

Pat Miller: 58:43

No, I just sat there and watched the show. It was great. Thanks for tuning in to the Professional Photographer podcast. Live from Imaging USA 2025 in Dallas, sponsored by Sony. A big thanks to them for putting all of this together so we could record our episodes. Now, there's something important we have to share. If you enjoyed this episode, you gotta like and subscribe to the channel. The PPA YouTube channel is going to the moon and when you click subscribe, we will get infinitely cooler. So hit subscribe and if you could jump into the comments and tell us what you liked about this episode, that helps us know what to do more of, and sometimes very rarely, but sometimes what to do less of with the show. The other thing we want to remind you of, if you're not yet a PPA member, you are absolutely missing out on all the goodies that come with being a part of this organization. We're talking about equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a community of photography pros around you so you can go as far as you'd like in your photography journey. If you'd like to learn more, PPA.com is the site. That's PPA.com. At PPA, you belong here. Thanks for tuning in to The Professional Photographer Podcast. I'm your host, Pat Miller. We'll see you right here next time. Thanks for tuning in.