How to Use Your Worst Moment to Build Client Trust with Matt Shoup

Pat Miller: 00:00

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer podcast. Why is Imaging USA so darn great? Is it the fact that we get to have our family reunion and see our photographer friends from all around the country? Yeah. Is it because we get to walk through the expo and pet all the fancy gear? But it's really because we get to learn and hear from amazing speakers. And one of our speakers is on the show today. Matt Shoup wrote the book Painted Baby, and in a nutshell, he had a very interesting business experience. There was an embarrassing story in the past of his painting business, and one of his potential clients asked him to tell it, and the results weren't what you would expect. This is an amazing story. It's a great book, and he's going to tell the full story and train you on how you can recapture the embarrassment from things that went wrong and so you can build trust and close more clients in the future. You got to hear this. Matt Shoup is standing by. We'll talk to him next. Matt, welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast. How are you today, Pat?

Matt Shoup: 01:12

Thanks for having me. I'm really good. It's a sunny Colorado October day right now.

Pat Miller: 01:16

I bet the weather is fantastic there. How long until it starts getting snowy and cold there?

Matt Shoup: 01:21

You know, it could snow tomorrow and then be 80 degrees a day later. It's a little up and down. It was pretty foggy, cold, rainy a couple days ago, and now it's just beautiful and sunny. But the snow's coming. We can feel it.

Pat Miller: 01:33

Well, if someone hasn't met you yet, tell us who you are, what you do, and tell us all about Painted Baby.

Matt Shoup: 01:38

Yeah. My name's Matt Schoup, and I'm a longtime entrepreneur. I'm unemployable. I found that out at a very early age. So I've started, grown, sold, closed, had success and failures at multiple different kinds of businesses and different industries over the year. My real calling and passion, though, is to write and speak. And I host leadership retreats and events all over the world, Spain specifically. And had the opportunity to write, write a book called Painted Baby that highlighted one of our business's biggest mistakes, mishaps, and we'll call it a bad day at the office that we'll get into shortly.

Pat Miller: 02:17

We get to learn about it at Imaging USA when you come and speak for us, and we'll talk about that a little bit later. But Painted Baby, that wasn't the first book, was it?

Matt Shoup: 02:26

No. I got the itch to write a book in 2011. And going into it, I really had no idea what I was doing. Everybody back then was, you know, writing print on demand books. And I sat down and actually took a presentation, a keynote presentation I had about winning business awards and turned it into a book. It's called Become an Award Winning Company. But after I wrote that, I learned a lot about what it really takes to be an author and really craft a message. And about a decade later, I released Painted Baby.

Pat Miller: 02:58

So Painted Baby came to be. This is such an interesting idea, and it's taken off for you. You go out and speak about it and teach about it. Set us up with Painted Baby. What is it? Because it sounds so intriguing.

Matt Shoup: 03:10

Yeah, so to set you up, I've got to back us up just a little bit. So, March of 2005, I'm working a corporate mortgage banking job and just hating life. I knew I wasn't employable, had graduated college. I thought the mortgage industry would be really awesome and it wasn't back then. And I got fired on a, on a Tuesday, right around lunchtime Tuesday, March 2005, in just a really embarrassing way. The bank president calls me and says, put all your S-H-I-T in a box and get out of the bank. Maybe you should go do that painting thing you did in college. So I'm like, okay. That's really all I know how to do. So I had to make a pretty quick decision about how I was going to support, which was just my wife and I at the time. And we started a residential paint contracting company in northern Colorado. And I went out from that Tuesday afternoon, Pat, for probably the next 24 months. And two methods of marketing, I knocked on doors, just knocked on doors like crazy. It was just real high conversion ratios, getting appointments. And then I would hang out in the two paint aisles at Home Depot pretending like I was shopping for something. And as people would approach, I'd just go start talking to them. And that's how I got business. So we grow the business really quickly. And the business was getting to the point by like, 2010, 2011, where it was really capped out. I was really capped out. I was doing too much, too many pieces of the business. We were profitable, but we just needed to like cross over that hump of profitability to make financial room to bring somebody on. And I'm walking into what was the biggest sale of my life. It's a former customer who we had painted for. His name's Bill. Very successful, you know, self-made guy, super great friend. He's become a great friend over the years. And we have a job that's like 20 times the size our normal contract. In normal paint jobs, 3,000. This is 60,000. And I'm really dialed in, Pat, back then on the sales, right? I'm a hard closer, setting up every appointment. How am I going to close this one? And I go into this thing like, this will be great. Worked for Bill before. He's got confidence in us. We've always done five-star, A plus, picture perfect work. Nothing's ever gone wrong. So I go in with my picture perfect presentation. I sit down with him. We start having a little coffee. He literally leans back, puts his boots on the desk, and he's like, all right, why should I go with you? And I'm like, why should you go with me? You've gone with me before. And he starts kind of sending these objections my way. And it was a little confusing. And he's not signing the contract. So I give him the either or close option, right? Do you want this option or that option? And he doesn't sign. He kind of sends it back. And he's just, he's hesitant and I'm getting frustrated. And I have, at the time, this probably an eight-page, really shiny marketing brochure. The thing costs like $5 to print, right? It's got all–after work. And it's just the premise of, right, like, you start a business, you work really hard to build a business, and you want to position it to look good, right? Like you want to show your best work and your A plus, 5-star reviews, your Better Business Bureau rating. And I'm doing all of this and I'm just dumping this stuff on him, and I hand him the brochure and I open and I say, Bill, look, this job we did for you, like, this is your garage that we painted just, you know, 12 months ago. Of course, we're going to do a good job on your vacation home. And this is like a secondary home for him. And I just remember, I'll never forget what he did. He takes the marketing brochure, he picks it up, kind of looks at it and tosses it across the room, bounces off his bookcase. And he says, your shiny marketing brochure is crap. You know it, and I know it. And then he asks me something that nobody's ever asked me before. And this kind of was the birth of Painted Baby. As he said, tell me about a time that you screwed up and what you did about it. And I've never been asked that before. And especially, Pat, for, like, photography, right. I'm going to be speaking at the conference in January. Not only do we go take photographs, but we touch those things up, we Photoshop those things. We are delivering, and we have to. Right? You're not going to deliver a bad picture. But photography is, like, the essence of painting. This perfect picture of perfection. And no one's ever asked me that. So I'm like, okay. I'm kind of scanning the stories in my head still a little, I'm shaken now. And I go, well, you know, we painted the wrong color on a house just a couple of weeks ago. Went to the paint store. They mismatched the paint. We started painting, you know, this customer's kitchen. She came home and noticed it was the wrong color. And he's like, well, okay, not a big deal. They probably do that frequently. And I'm like, they actually do. It's a pretty common occurrence. He goes, all right, not a big deal. Next. And he just leans back, and the dude keeps sipping his coffee. And I'm like, what's going on? And I'm searching the mental bank, and I go, okay, fine. That last story, that was the right house, wrong color. Two years ago, we actually did the right color, wrong house. Yeah. So, and I get kind of a reaction like that from him. He puts the coffee down, and he leans in, you know, slaps the table. Hey, yeah, I want to know about that. What happened? So I go on to explain a little bit about there's a neighborhood in Fort Collins, Colorado, where we were operating at the time. There is a Blue Sky, I think it's Blue Sky Drive and Blue Sky Court. There's a Drive and a Court, same street name, same house numbers on those two different streets. So me not being a very attention to detail kind of guy, send my crew. I said, hey, go to 2412 Blue Sky. So they show up to 2412 Blue Sky. They scrape it, they caulk it, they prime it. They cover everything. They even trimmed the homeowner's bushes back away from the house. They call me. They're like, where's the paint? So I'm sitting here, right? Story within a story. I'm talking to Bill, telling him about this. And these painters call me, and they go, the paint's not here. I said, it's on the front porch. I told them to leave it on the front porch. Confirm it's on the front porch. Call them back. I go, it's right on the front porch next to the flower pot. They said, Matt, there's no porch really on this house. And there's definitely no flower pot. So I'm like, all right. I drive over to the house. They're not there because I drive up to Blue Sky Drive, and I'm like, you guys haven't touched this house. There's nothing going on. And so then we start cursing and screaming at each other. And they're like, we're at 2412 Blue Sky Court. Where are you? And I said, Court? So Bill's really intrigued by his story. He goes, well, what did you do about it? That was his follow up question. What did you do about it? I said, well, I sat in front of that house that we were not supposed to be painting while the crew went to the house that we were now late to start at and waited till this homeowner got home. And he was pissed when he got home. He pulled up and he's like, why did you just scrape, caulk, prime? You trim my bushes. Those are my favorite bushes. He was so mad. And I said, Bill, so we painted the guy's house for free. It ended up being a good thing. Can we please sign this contract now and get started on your work? And still was not taking the–no, and that's a great story, right?

Pat Miller: 10:13

It's a great story.

Matt Shoup: 10:14

Like kick things up, tells you about that. It's engaging. I hooked him. And what I didn't know at the time, and what I talk about in the book and what I'll talk about at the conference is there is a way to tell a story where you have to hook them and have a context. It has to be engaging. There needs to be an outcome, and there needs to be a buildup, a crescendo, an ultimate solution, all of that. So I'll talk about that, but I don't know what I'm doing at the time. I'm just so focused on trying to close this job. And he takes another sip of coffee, and he's like, you know, I feel like you've got something better than what you just shared with me. All right, man, here, here we go. And I said, I've never, I promised I would never share this ever, ever, but I'm going to share it with you. And I said, but you have to promise me that you'll do the work. And he goes, well, just tell me the story. We'll see what happens. And I said, we painted a baby, okay? And he's like, you did what? You painted a baby? So, I said yeah, I said sit, sit back for this one, go refill your coffee. And the long story short of it is we are painting a house. Three years prior to that, and I had a crew, two brothers. One's like the real serious gentleman, the other one's the real class clown. And it'll matter in a minute. Their names are Bloss and Raul, takes them three days to paint a house. Very cookie cutter homes that we're painting. And we're painting for this wonderful family. Mother comes out. She's always got her nine-month old baby in hand, right? She comes out to bring the guys drinks and snacks, and oh, that's so beautiful. I love the colors that we picked. And she was always just out engaging with the guys. So she's out on the last day of the job, and I'll kind of back up before I get into the story. I'm 20 minutes away doing a bank deposit, and my phone just starts ringing off the hook from Raul. He's class clown, funny guy, painter. And typically, about once a week, he'd play a joke on me. These guys are from Mexico, so Spanish is first, English is his second language. And he's like, ah, Mateo, Mateo. I spill the paint on the lady's deck. She's really mad. Haha. And he'd get me all worked up and joked on me. But it was once a week, it was never more, never less. And he's calling and calling and calling. I keep putting the phone away, and I get out of the bank. I said I should probably call him back, so go to call him back. Soon as the phone picks up, it is a complete chaos on the other end of the phone. I hear Mateo, Mateo, come quick. And I'm like, what? He goes, the paint, the boom. The paint, the boom, the baby. And I hear a mom screaming. And then screaming kind of turns into talking. She's talking with the other painter. I hear this baby crying hysterically. He goes, Mateo, the paint, the boom, the baby, Mateo. I paint the baby, and hangs up the phone. Those are his last words. I'm 20 minutes away. I jump in the car, beeline it over to the house, pull up to the house. Bloss, his brother is like picking up drop cloths and, and he has drop cloths covered in black paint. He's covered in black paint. There's a trail of black semi gloss paint going up the driveway around the side of the house. So I pull up and he just got the head down. He points up the driveway, and I go into the backyard. Raul's scrubbing paint off of, like, everything. Flagstone, grill, grass, the side of the house, the fence, like the little baby playground castle that they have. And he's covered in paint. And I'm like, what happened? He goes, I paint the baby. So what happens? He's got a spray gun. He's ready to spray the doors. The last thing we do are all of, like, the accent pieces on a home. There's a door. They pick the color black. Mom's coming out to watch. Apparently, she liked to watch the spray gun, and Raul didn't know she was behind him. He goes to pull the trigger, and the paint should just go whoosh and spray nice, even patterns. Got jammed somehow. We don't know how, but he pulls the trigger. Boom. Paint explodes everywhere. So everything's painted, including mom and the baby. So, again, story within the story. I'm sitting here with Bill and, Pat, I'm like, what am I doing right now? This is career suicide. This isn't going to work. But Bill, for some reason, he's, like, the most engaged he's ever been. He's hooked. He's leaning in. He's drinking coffee. He's like, well, what happened? Was the baby okay? And he goes, oh, man. How'd you clean that up? So, taking him through the story, and he says, well, what did you do about it? And explained what we did about it. We made sure the baby was okay. Right? In a situation like that, not to make light, we could have seriously injured a baby, a little human. Baby was fine, and then it was just tons of clean up and taking accountability and making things right. So I'm done with this story. And I'm like, that is not marketing, sales, Persuasion 101. Never read that in a book. I got forced, kind of backed into a corner. And I'm just like, do you want me to let myself out the front door or the side door, Bill? Because I'm not thinking this is going to go. He goes, well, he goes, come here. And he sticks his hand out, and he goes, give me that contract there. And he goes, you're the kind of guy I want to do business with, and shakes my hand. And I'm baffled. Right? He said, you know, I wanted to know what the worst-case scenario would be and what you would do about it. And he's like, all you've been telling me is how perfect you are all the time. And he's like, I'm kind of sick of hearing that everywhere in the world. So, I land the biggest job of my life, sharing the biggest train wreck moment in the business that you would never put in a marketing brochure, never put a commercial out, or an announcement out about. And it totally transformed the business. And I can kind of jump into what we did and what we learned from there, but I didn't realize what was happening at the time. It took me about six to 12 months to really figure out what went on there.

Pat Miller: 16:07

That's a wild story. And I can see how it must have felt really uncomfortable to allow a side of your branding and marketing to come out that was imperfect, especially if you had kind of prided yourself on look at how flawless we are. Just go back to that moment just one more second. That must have been something that you will never forget. That moment of just laying it all out there. And when you started the Painted Baby story, it's not like that's something you can take back. Like, you had to go through with telling that story. So you can still feel that moment when you had to do that.

Matt Shoup: 16:42

I can. So there's this transition from, like, we painted the wrong house. That's pretty freaking good. And you're like, well, there's something more. And I said, well, fine. We painted a baby. It was this frustrated outburst. And then I'm like, oh, man. Like, you know, once you say it, you can't take it back. And as soon as he leaned in, he's like, do tell. I knew I had to tell. And as I'm doing it, it's just there's this kind of underlying sentiment of like, I'm done. As my kids would say, I'm cooked. Right?

Pat Miller: 17:09

You're cooked.

Matt Shoup: 17:10

I'm cooked. Yeah. But I mean, then when I'm done, I go, okay, here you go. Like, it's just, but there's power in that. We can talk about that here. He sticks the hand out to shake the hand, and I'm like, huh? Okay, there's something here. So then I started experimenting with this story, learning how, where, when, why to tell it, and it really did transform our business.

Pat Miller: 17:38

How long did it take for you to go from, that was a weird client to wait, There's a learning lesson here and start to deploy it. So let's talk about that transition from that was weird to, oh, my gosh, I've discovered the difference maker for my business.

Matt Shoup: 17:52

Yeah. I'm a pretty quick to act guy. So I jump in the car. I remember I called my wife, said, Emily, you're not going to believe what happened. I told Bill about Painted Baby. She's like, what? You did what? Why'd you do that? Get back to the office, and we had this big whiteboard where we'd write all our sales down. And I write the big job up there. And they're like, how did you close that one? I said, told the Painted Baby. And they're like, you did what? I said, there's something going on here with this. So I immediately went out. It was like the next day. It was the beginning of our sales week. I went on all 10 appointments, and I was so excited. I told them about Painted Baby. And you know how many jobs I landed that week? Zero. Because I was so excited. You know, when you have this, like, epiphany in life or business or professional or like, your faith or whatever it is. Right? And like, you want to go tell everybody.

Pat Miller: 18:42

Yeah.

Matt Shoup: 18:43

And then you forget just, like the common sense of everything else you need to do. So that's what I did. I just was so excited. I go out, and that's all I share. And you don't want to do that. There's a setup for where you want to set this story up. But I learned over the next three to four weeks that there's, for me, the perfect moment to share it was you show up and you build rapport and you get, you know, that initial. There's an initial. I like this person. I trust this person. I'm probably going to buy. Right? There's this surface level, but there's always this other human layer of deeper seated doubt of like, well, but is this person really trustable? So, right before I would ask for the business about three weeks and say, hey, you know, before we get into doing business together, I know I've showed you why I'm so great, but can I tell you a story real quick about a time we weren't so great. And they never say no to that. They go, well, sure. What was it? I go, we painted a baby. And then you pause. And that's the hook. And they're like, do tell. And just that engagement, it just opens up that relationship and that conversation to it to a deeper level. And then that's when you share the story. And they always ask, you know, how was Raul? How was the baby? What happened? And it raised our closing rate anywhere from 8 to 12%, which you know, that translates to dollars. So, I know a photographer, he does an initial like senior photo package, and then, he comes back and he sits them down. And then I don't want to say upsell, but sells the actual like physical products, right? And it's like there is a measurable, you do this, it will make you this much or many more dollars. And then I said, well, let's take it another step further because I'm like a marketing guy. And we had bus stops and bus benches and all this. So we went and I said, I need a baby. I need a painted baby. And we like Google searched, there were no good images. This is my daughter Hailey. We brought her into the office, dressed her up in white through non-toxic safe paint. There's no babies harmed. Threw paint all over her, and did a photo shoot. And then we slapped this thing up on buses and benches, and website and direct mail, and ended up being one of our biggest marketing campaigns that just drew attention to us as well.

Pat Miller: 21:00

So you have this idea, you're rapid prototyping, you figure out how to deploy it. How long did it take for that to turn into a book or to start sharing this story with other entrepreneurs?

Matt Shoup: 21:12

So, the story I just started sharing over ,and this is kind of the general premise of like how I write and do books now is I'll just start kind of talking about it over coffee just to see one on one how engaging, how engaged people are. It kind of flushes out the idea. And again, I wasn't thinking as an author still back then, but this was 2011-12. The campaign really kicked off pretty hard in like '13. I decided 2015 to write the book. It actually took me seven years to write it just because I just wasn't ready to step into that space. But I really decided back in 2022, into 2023, like I'm an author. One of the biggest things if anybody's thinking of writing a book is there's a difference between like writing a book to have it as a business card and identifying as, hey, I am an author. And that's what I wasn't doing. But yeah, the book released, yeah, 2023.

Pat Miller: 22:08

We will get into and learn from you at Imaging USA. We get to see you speak, which is going to be incredible. But let's talk a little bit about talking about our business because this is a story about how we talk about our business, and we talk about our business all the time. We, when we're doing elevator pitches. We do it when we're introducing ourselves to other people. Independent of the Painted Baby story, what does all of this taught you about how we stand up and present ourselves to others?

Matt Shoup: 22:35

Yeah, 90%, like, I go to networking and you know, the tabletops and the BNIs and I love pitches. I love the elevator pitch and that idea of, hey, I've got your attention for not even 20 seconds. It's about three seconds, and then maybe another 15; 90% of what I hear is just the same thing, right? Now, ran into a business yesterday. I've never heard of this business before. They come out to roll off dumpsters, and they compact the trash in the roll off dumpsters. Like, did you even know that exists until yesterday? Now I do. Not a real commodity, like, I didn't even know that's there. So that's kind of an easier pitch. But how many photographers do you know, right? That's like how many realtors, how many painters, how many, whatever. So you've got to hook them with something really engaging really fast. So whatever your story is, you can talk about your business. But I think there's also a very personal brand element to a photographer, right? Like Bob Younger Images, who does all of our photography. He travels with us on our Spain trips. He sells himself, but he also sells the quality and the differentiation that he does with his work. So I think you've got to pick as a photographer, which angle do you want to talk? You want to talk about yourself or your business? When you're going to share a mistake or a mishap, first reaction or response? I get to Painted Baby. Well, I've never had that. Like, I've never had a photo shoot go wrong or, you know, lights come crashing down. I said, well, cool. Talk about something personally where you've had a, you know, a personal mishap. So we kind of go down that route, and I can talk about a couple of different angles of those stories, but you've got to catch attention really quick. You can't sound like everybody else or you'll be forgotten. And you've got to take a risk when you're putting something out there, and then you have to test it and see what people's reactions are.

Pat Miller: 24:28

And this is something that might be new for some photographers because they believe, well, I'll be differentiated by the quality of my work, by the color that I choose to use, by my lighting. And while that might be true, you're a believer that storytelling is what separates you from other brands.

Matt Shoup: 24:44

Yeah. And storytelling is something that connects us as humans and builds and engages with just a different part of us where you feel like you're on this journey with this person. You just connect with them at a different level. And again, like, go test and check. Go to your next networking group and say, hey, I'm Matt Shoup Photography. And I use the best lights and have the greatest turnaround time and I do the best touching up and, and awesomest pricing. All these kind of commoditized. And it's like I hate the no duh kind of things. Like we wash, we power wash the house. See, everybody should do that. Like don't ever have that be your differentiator. Of course, that needs to happen. And then change up and just say, hey, can I share a story? Here's why people love Bob. Right? And this is why I love Bob and respect him so much; 30 years in law enforcement. Like he has served, he's poured into the community. He's not like you're typical stereotypical police officer. He's just the funniest off the wall guy. But he served the community. And part of where and why he's growing his business is he wants to retire. So he gets to kind of share that journey and story. So not only is somebody supporting the great work he does, but they're supporting his like retirement and his next phase of life. And I know that right there hooks people. It definitely hooked me.

Pat Miller: 26:07

If someone wanted to use their own Painted Baby story, you've described it as finding the story that you wouldn't want your competition to know about. And I think that's reclaiming so much power. Can you talk us through that just a little bit? Because there are deep, dark stories that we hope no one ever hears from. And to be able to reclaim that seems so counterintuitive.

Matt Shoup: 26:27

Yeah. And I don't want to give away something that we'll do at the conference when I'm there, but I do ask people. I go, just think about what that is. Right? So think about whether it is personally, professionally, within your personal story, your business story. What is that thing that, man, like the competition would love to get a hold of that. They would love to go into the next appointment and say, hey, did you know Bob Younger this, for example. Right? Or Matt Shoup that or M&E Painting. Cool. You build the story first and then go share it. Because it lead–there's no power to that. Right? And it's kind of that idea of, you know, whatever's in the dark can grow, gets brought to the light. It's out there. It has to be dealt with. Are you an Eminem fan?

Pat Miller: 27:11

Oh, yeah, sure.

Matt Shoup: 27:12

The 8 Mile movie, right? He gets to that last rap battle and he's like, I know what these guys are gonna say about me. So he just goes out and raps about it first and leaves them speechless.

Pat Miller: 27:24

Painted babies, Eminem. We cover all, we're all fields in the interview today.

Matt Shoup: 27:30

It's gonna be fun. Like, I'm really excited for January to come out and share this with you guys.

Pat Miller: 27:34

So, yeah, set us up for the talk. So we see you in January, and what are we going to walk away with? Will we have a little bit to find our Painted Baby story and learn how to use it? Is that what we're going to get?

Matt Shoup: 27:45

Yeah. So you'll hear the story in full. I gave you a pretty consolidated version. There's just fun little details of this journey with Bill and I and the way the whole story played out. So you get to relive that experience with me. You'll really just get inspired and motivated to not be scared of burying this story, and you'll actually be excited to bring it out. The next step, though, is, well, how do I actually tell a story? So how do we capture craft and communicate? So there is a framework; there's a downloadable workbook as well that everybody will get access to where they can build that story and then go out and share it, practice it, implement it, and then ultimately see it turn into, you know, deeper relationships which lead to more business.

Pat Miller: 28:30

Absolutely cannot wait to see you in January at Imaging USA. Matt, thanks for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Matt Shoup: 28:35

Thanks for having me, Pat.

Pat Miller: 28:36

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of The Professional Photographer Podcast. Already excited to talk with you again next week. Now, before you go, can you take a minute and let us know what you thought of this week's episode? Did you really think that's how Matt's story would end up when he told it to the client? Leave us a comment. Like the show. Subscribe. All of those things help us know that we're doing the right stuff here with The Professional Photographer Podcast. Also, if you're not yet a member of PPA, you're really missing out. PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in a sustainable and profitable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership at ppa.com. That's ppa.com. I'm Pat Miller, founder of the Small Business Owners Community and host to the show. Thanks for spending some time with us. We'll see you right here next time. Take care.