Leadership, Philosophy, and PPA's Future with Mark Campbell

Pat Miller: 00:00

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. Okay. Sit up straight. Look alive. Wear something nice. The president is coming by today. I mean, not earpiece, Secret Service, helicopters, Air Force 1 kind of president. The President of the Board from PPA is coming here on The Professional Photographer Podcast. Mark Campbell's gonna join us in just one moment, and we're gonna get the inside scoop on what's going on with the organization. What are they working on? Where are they leading us? Where might we be 1 year from today? He's also a long time studio owner, so we're gonna have to talk about how do we build a successful photography studio? What should we be thinking about right now, and what are some of the pitfalls that we find ourselves in as we try and build a winning studio? Last but not least, we're gonna talk about his column inside The Professional Photographer Magazine. Where does he find inspiration? What is he working on right now? And what is his overall point of view on writing the column and why we should read it? So I'm telling you, get out the fine China. The president is coming. Mark Campbell, he's standing by. We'll talk to him next. Well, this is a big deal. Welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast, Mr. President. How are you today, Mark?

Mark Campbell: 01:27

I'm doing great, Pat. How are you?

Pat Miller: 01:29

I'm great. I'm really glad you're here. And this is exciting for us because this show is to serve the members of PPA and get a chance to talk with you and get your perspective on what's going on with the organization is really helpful for us and for the folks that are gonna watch. So let's begin at the beginning. How long have you been the PPA President?

Mark Campbell: 01:48

Well, it's a funny thing is it feels like it just started, but I'm actually more than halfway through. All the offices start on, March 1st, which is our fiscal year. And so I'm a little over 6 months in, and literally, it feels like it was yesterday.

Pat Miller: 02:02

And time moves fast, and I'm sure you're busy doing a bunch of stuff. But during that 6 months, and with the time you have remaining and with your time on the board, what are you hoping to achieve? What do you wanna see come true for the membership in the organization?

Mark Campbell: 02:16

Oh, well, other than, you know, I'd like to have an Imaging USA in Santorini, Greece, which I don't see. I believe it's probably the only way I can get there. It's actually more complicated question than what it might appear on the surface. I don't think anybody has ever gotten on this board, and at the end of the 1st year or so, hasn't gone, “Wow. I had no idea.” Had no idea how the nuances of all of this work, how the board interacts with staff and with the membership and council and how all of our documents work, and so forth. And so because of that, I think it's a little naive to come in with a preconceived idea. Like this is what I intend to do while I'm on the board or while I'm president. Because until you understand how all of that works, it would be a little difficult to do that. So, you know, the ball was already rolling when I got here 7 years ago. And I kind of think that our main focus, our main job, is to keep that ball rolling in the right direction, making small force corrections along the way. So that eventually, you know, when our term is done, my term is done, we've served the membership well because that's really what it comes down to. Without the members, we don't exist. And then the other thing you learn is that you are one of, regardless of your position on the board, you're one of 13 voices, and no voice is more or less important. So again, it's not so much a personal agenda as it is to just make sure you leave it better than you found it. And that phrase that I've heard, you know, the entire time I've been on the board.

Pat Miller: 03:41

When you take that position, does it hit you the size, scope, history, and importance of this organization?

Mark Campbell: 03:49

Yeah, it kind of does. And everybody seems to make up more of a big deal about this office than I do. You know, I'm just me. I'm still me. I'm the same guy I've been all my life. I just happened to have stepped in temporarily into another role. But yeah, when you think about 35,000 people worldwide, 50 plus countries, that are looking to you, not personally, but, you know, as an association for help and guidance, yeah. That's a big deal, and it's something that you have to take serious.

Pat Miller: 04:19

Well, I love that perspective, and I love the piece of the mission that we get to collaborate on, which is education. And PPA is leaning into the education for photographers and those in the industry. Maybe not speaking for the entire organization, let's talk about you. Why do you think this mission is so important?

Mark Campbell: 04:37

Well, I'll tell you education in general has always been supremely important to me. I spent a lot of time thinking about things that most people don't. It's just kind of the way my brain works. And I'm always conscious of, you know, in society in general, people that would have the potential to have a great impact on society never get that opportunity because of a lack of education. And it, you know, it's something that I may not be able to affect personally, but as far as PPA is concerned and the education department at PPA, what I can be a part of is helping to make sure that all PPA members have access to, yeah, the information that they need to help their creative spirit and their businesses soar. So that's always for me, education, regardless of the conversation that you put it around, is always utmost of importance.

Pat Miller: 05:28

As a previous studio owner, President of the Board, seeing education being deployed by the organization, does that make you feel good personally that the organization is leaning so much into it? Because I've seen a peek behind the curtain. There is a literal Macy's Day parade full of education coming down the pike here. It's really impressive. So with your, you know, emphasis on education, that's gotta make you feel good.

Mark Campbell: 05:52

It does. And I was, I remember being genuinely very excited at the first board meeting where this was, you know, the new changes and new, policies that are about to be implemented were first brought to us. And, you know, of course, we control the budget. So there was money going to be spent. So the board had to approve that budget. And I was like, whatever it takes, you know, this is of paramount importance. Not that there are other issues that are equally important, but again, for education, I look back at not only my career, but everyone that I know in the industry, you don't get here. Yeah. You're never going to get there with trial and error. You're never gonna get there without standing on the shoulders of the people that came before you. And education is absolutely the way to push that forward. So, yeah, very excited.

Pat Miller: 06:37

We're gonna learn from Mark here in a second, but if you're watching this show, you've been enjoying it this whole time, I just want you to stop for a second and understand that this isn't some devastatingly handsome guy in his basement making a podcast. This is just a small piece of this giant puzzle that PPA is putting together to help you win to further your education. This is a service from this organization to you as a photographer. And if you really wanna get better, if you wanna put in the work, it's time to be excited about what's going on. So for all of us that are watching and participating on this side of the camera, I'm really excited about what the organization is doing, and it's been a heck of a lot of fun so far, so--

Mark Campbell: 07:15

Very well put.

Pat Miller: 07:16

--thank you. Thank you for choosing to make this, a big commitment of the organization. So how about we turn our attention to learning from you and hearing about what you're writing about and how you're expressing yourself. Let's talk about building a great business. You have a solid business recipe that when you shared it with me, it was really simple and I loved it. Could you share what you want to achieve and what you need to do to make that thing come true?

Mark Campbell: 07:44

Well, I won't get into specifics because, you know, everybody's situation is a little different, but I can tell you, I believe rule number 1 is always starting with the end in mind. And that's the case with anything. It becomes much easier when you know where you want to be and in what timeframe you want that to happen. It's much easier to work backwards and to get to that goal than it is, you know, to start from the beginning and just sort of not know which route to go down. And then once you have that plan worked out, it comes down to, am I willing to do that? Which I have to, you know, I think of the Meatloaf song, you know, “I'll do anything for love, but I won't do that.” And you have to kind of put that mindset aside because you have to be willing to do what it takes to get there. And every successful person that has ever lived on this planet has done things and learned to do things that they didn't necessarily want to do, or that, you know, felt foreign to them initially. But in order for them to be successful, they had to go down that road. So, you know, I left, in the nineties, I left a very high-paying job to pursue photography full-time. It was a risk, but I knew that if I didn't take that risk, that I would never get to the position I wanted to be in. And what was the worst thing that could happen? Well, I could fail at it and have to take a step backwards and regroup. No big deal. You know that I believe that, and I still do that, persistence and perseverance will always win out if you're passionate about something. I remember saying I'd sell pencils on a street corner before I went back to my job.

Pat Miller: 09:16

Yeah. Once you leave working for somebody else, it's nearly impossible to go back.

Mark Campbell: 09:21

Oh, very much.

Pat Miller: 09:24

I just, I can't even imagine it. Like, I don't think I'd last a day. Wait, you want me to be someplace where at what? I have to wear real pants? No, I'm out.

Mark Campbell: 09:30

And you know, that's probably the crux of all of it is it's never about the job. It's never really about the people. It's about having to be somewhere where you're, you know, you're not supposed to be. You know you're supposed to be somewhere else.

Pat Miller: 09:43

Let's think back to when you were running the studio using your guidance. Were there moments when you wanted something, but you weren't willing to do the work or times when you were willing to do the work, but you had no idea what you wanted?

Mark Campbell: 09:54

Yeah. Unfortunately, I think, you know, I've been doing it now for 40 years. So, there are always things that you look back, and this is my second career. That's a really scary thing when you think about it. But there are always things that you would do differently in hindsight. I remember being told many times by people that were smarter than me that if I really wanted to grow my business, that I needed to consider outsourcing, a lot of work, a lot of things that, you know, they said at the time that's $10 an hour work. You should be focusing on the higher paying stuff. And I wasn't always willing to do that because my goals were a little bit different. I was never, I didn't plan to get rich in photography. I wanted to do something that was fun and creative. And for me, giving up part of that creative process was just a little too hard to do. I recognized the value in what I was being told, and they were definitely correct. It was probably a mistake, but I had to be confident in selling a product that I knew it was the best that I could possibly produce. On the other side of that, we worked our tails off on weddings for over 30 years. We did it in a time when we didn't have access to the tools that are available today. We would literally go out with a ton of equipment from cameras, lights, backgrounds, video equipment, sound equipment. It took 4 people to manage it all. And, you know, we were crushing it from an image and reputation standpoint in the community, but it was by far the lowest profit item that we were doing. And eventually, we had to take a look at that and quit doing weddings. And then, of course, technology changed and made all of it so much easier. But I'd already moved on from that point. And, you know, I was ready for something else. So, my hats off to the people that are still doing it today. It's a different business than it was 40 years ago.

Pat Miller: 11:42

Let's play a game as though we're at a wedding together because I have a bet. Every wedding I go to, I have a bet with the person I'm sitting with. We make a wager that I can predict the first song the DJ will play. Now you've done weddings for 30 years. The song is, “Celebrate Good Times. Come on.” Every single time, every single wedding, that's always the first song. Do you agree with that, or do you have a different one that you can recall is always the first song they played?

Mark Campbell: 12:06

That was pretty much it. You know, the DJ's job is to get people out on their chair after dinner and onto the dance floor. And that was, you know, that was the one. And then, of course, there were the other Sanders that you heard every week that you got so sick of, you know, the Macarena, the YMCA, all of those little dance things. And I remember going to a friend's wedding, a photographer's wedding, and it was almost all photographers who were there as guests. Right? And the DJ thought, “Oh, I've got all these photographers. They're gonna know all of these songs.” And we were like, “No, stop. We don't wanna hear that ever again.”

Pat Miller: 12:41

Oh, I can only imagine. I can't even imagine all of the wedding cakes you tasted. That's gotta be a story. That's a separate podcast, stories from that many ways.

Mark Campbell: 12:50

It is. Food in general, you know, we always used to tell our brides, people will only remember it if it's very, very good or if it's very, very bad. Everything in the middle, no one's gonna remember. So don't stress yourself out.

Pat Miller: 13:01

Oh, that's funny. Alright. Thanks for dishing on that. Alright. So let's talk about photographers trying to build a business. That's what this show is all about. And some people weigh on one side or the other side of this question. Leaning into really great images? Leaning into really great customer service? The answer, of course, is both. But in your heart, which way do you lean?

Mark Campbell: 13:21

Well, it is both. So, I mean, we have to be able to create, technically, proficient images and salable images. But if we don't understand, you know, what it is that our clients want and need, you know, we're probably not going to be successful. You know, I know people, we all know people who are incredible artists, but really have struggled making a living entirely, if you will. Other people are, you know, would be the first to admit they're mediocre in their skills, but they're killing it because they understand their target market. They understand their clients, and they understand that they need to satisfy those clients. And again, by doing whatever it takes. So, yeah, I agree with that. I'd give us, a definitely an edge to, you know, to that over the images. We all wanna create pretty images. But we have this mistaken idea that if we do that, that clients are gonna flock to our door, and nothing's further from the truth.

Pat Miller: 14:14

Well, I think we follow-up on that by saying what you've said before. It's not what people look like. It's what's in their mind. Can you expand on that quote? ‘Cause I think it's really good and it could be instructive to what you were just talking about.

Mark Campbell: 14:26

So, you know, I was primarily a portrait photographer. I did a lot of different genres, but primarily portrait. And if you look at something like, say, a family portrait, you know, what is the goal there really? What, you know, if you think about, are we just trying to represent what people look like or is there a deeper meaning to it? And the truth is that if you just show an image to a client and they say, yep, that's us. That's what we look like. There's no emotional connection there, and there's no real impetus to buy. However, if you can establish connections within that photograph and it can, and I'm not talking about, you know, necessarily fantasy images or overly Photoshopped, you know, to make mom look so great or whatever. We all know she's the one with the checkbook. It's more about establishing connections, and it can be as simple as the placement of different people within the frame, a little hand contact here and there, that expression, something that when they look at that photograph on their walls, they walk past it every day, it makes them feel something instead of just, well, that's what we look like. That's gonna be, always gonna be much more successful.

Pat Miller: 15:28

It's an answer like that, that I enjoyed the first time that we had the chance to talk. You've got this philosophical perspective on business and capturing images and satisfying clients. Besides capturing what's on their mind, are there other philosophical ideas or feelings or thoughts that you think PPA members should be thinking about as they go forward to build their business?

Mark Campbell: 15:51

Well, first of all, I hope that they would recognize how important what they do is. You know, we go way beyond preserving history, and it can be everything from documenting actual historical events to what most of us do. And that's personal histories and documenting that. And if you think about all of us have looked at photographs, say of ancestors of ours from a 100 years ago, and we try to imagine what their life was like. And we turn, you know, the genealogy is a big thing because people want to know as much detail about their ancestry as possible. And so what we tend to forget sometimes is that the images we're creating right now today are going to have that impact 50 to a 100 years and maybe even beyond from now. So take it seriously because it is a very, very serious thing. And it's something that, you know, it will live on, you know, past all of us. That's not really my goal. Like, you know, my goal in life is not to create things that will surpass me. My goal, almost like it was with the board, is to keep that ball rolling, and so that the next person can pick it up and move it a little bit further.

Pat Miller: 16:57

One way that we get a chance to stay in touch with you besides the podcast, which has been a great conversation so far, is your article. You write an article inside the magazine, The Professional Photographer Magazine. So how do you approach creating that column?

Mark Campbell: 17:11

I throw darts. I put a big board of random topics up and throw darts. And I have really bad aim, so you never know. The truth is the first few were easy. I think I had probably, the first four articles written before I even took office because they illustrated important points, things that I found important, you know, things I've been promoting for a long time, perseverance, failure, what it actually is and what it isn't, the folly of trying to fit in, finding your purpose, valuing the opinions of others and so forth. Beyond that, it probably was more tied to things that might've been happening in my life or in the world in general at the time I wrote the article. One of the more recent ones I wrote literally right after watching the closing ceremonies at the Olympics. And I sat and thought about why am I such an Olympic junkie? Why do I sit here? And you know, I think I mentioned this in the article. I've never in the 4 years prior to that said, I can't wait to get home and watch the finals of the javelin contest. But yet as, when it's part of the Olympics, we all sit glued to that. And I had to really think about why that was, and so that was the focus of that article. It's just whatever seems to be happening. And again, almost always tied to something philosophical because that's just how my brain works.

Pat Miller: 18:35

Do you enjoy that? Does that make it fun for you to have these thoughts and be able to share them with people?

Mark Campbell: 18:40

Yeah. It makes it fun to be able to share them, and they can't get up and walk away. So that's nice. You know, I remember being in a hot tub, a very large hot tub, late one night in Aruba, and there were a bunch of people, and we sort of started down this philosophical road. Right? And I sort of took over the conversation because, you know, I had so much I wanted to say, which is unusual for me. I'm more of a listener than a talker, but 1 by 1 people were going, “Oh, geez, look at the time,” and getting up and leaving until there was just, you know, probably that one guy left. He's like, “Now it's really awkward if I leave.” So I have a bit of a captive audience in the articles, but I've been getting a lot of feedback along the way that's been very positive. And that's been really, it feels really good when you get that. You know, someone’s reading it.

Pat Miller: 19:29

Yeah. And that makes it interesting too. I mean, you're given a blank canvas for the most part, but you're not talking F-stops and light meters. Like, you have something to say that you're really pouring your heart into. It doesn't have to be that way. It could be how to raise your average sale, but it sounds like you're putting more of you into it than the average bear.

Mark Campbell: 19:48

Well, all of that is valuable. And it just depends on who you are, and the perspective of the presidents in those articles, I think, is important. I remember, you know, saying, I've had this conversation with our editor, and I've had this conversation with our board from time to time in that the membership should know who the president is. And I remember saying to the editor once, you know, don't polish me. Don't show the membership a polished version of me. If I write and look like I'm an idiot, then the membership should know that I'm an idiot. And that's just the way it should be. And so every president will bring their own perspective and whatever it is that they feel is important to the job. And that's one of the roles is writing the articles. So it just was a no brainer for me, to sort of go down that route. You know, other people can handle the other stuff way better than I can, but only you can do things that are important to you. I remember seeing an interview many years ago with Cyndi Lauper and she was giving advice to a young group of musicians. And she said, you may only get 15 minutes of fame. Just make sure that when the spotlight hits you, you actually have something to say. And that stuck with me, and it made so much sense. And so I've been preparing for this for a long time, and not that my opinion is any more valid than anyone else's, but it is my opinion. And if anyone gets any value out of it, then great. That's what I'm hopeful of.

Pat Miller: 21:11

Take us into your office on the, you know, post-it note that's sitting on the desk with a couple of scribbles or ideas for future columns. Is there anything that's in the lab that we might be able to read from you soon that you're thinking about exploring?

Mark Campbell: 21:25

Well, I actually just finished one yesterday. And it's so funny that many times I write these articles just sort of like in the past and I've done, I've assigned myself personal photo projects, and done them without really realizing at the time why I get it. And then later on, it comes to me, you know, I had a series that I did once and I had the, it was part of a book that was produced. And I had to write a synopsis of what, why I did that, and what that series meant. And it wasn't until I sat down to write it that it actually hit me what the meaning was and why I did it in the first place. And so I wrote this article yesterday after cutting my grass, and I have 90 minutes to ride around and listen to music while I'm cutting my grass. It's a no brainer job. And, but I love that every, well, it usually is every week, not this summer. The grass, I've cut my grass twice since the 4th July, but I did cut it last week, and I heard a song, a Diamond Rheum song called One More Day. And it talks about what this person would do if they had one more day with you. And it really started me thinking about why we don't live every day then. Why we have to wait until something happens and we no longer have that opportunity, and what a wasted opportunity that is. And then I got done with the article, and I sat down to watch television last night, and I hadn't realized what yesterday was. Yesterday was 9/11. And I think subconsciously somewhere in my brain that was just rattling around and, you know, there were 3,000 people who went to bed the night before never expecting to be cut short the next day; 3,000 lives and all the people connected to those lives never had the opportunity to say goodbye. And I saw what a waste that is, you know. Supposedly, reportedly David Cassidy, the singer David Cassidy, his last words to his daughter were, “So much wasted time.” And I just don't ever wanna get to that point in my life and look back with regret. So, yeah, I think the articles come out of current events, but for me more often than not, it's a subconscious thing. I don't really think about it until it's over and done.

Pat Miller: 23:25

This isn't some GPT washed, C-suite garbled, PR hack nightmare stuff. This is what is gonna be in the magazine, and this is why you need to read the column. So, it's exciting to hear what you're working on. And I just love the emotion that you put into what you do. If we live these days with purpose and we string them together to 1 year from today, where is PPA? What do you think the members are going to be doing? How do you look at where we're gonna be in the near future?

Mark Campbell: 23:54

Well, I think the membership is gonna be fine. We have processes and policies in place now that are gonna yield substantial benefits to the membership, even in the next decade. A year from now, we're going to be closer to transitioning in leadership, mostly on the board, but also on staff. You know, we have, in my career, an unprecedented changeover are going to happen in a year or so with our CEO and CFO. And while that creates challenges, that also creates certain opportunities. You know, we can't necessarily look around some of those corners and see, you know, what's coming, but I'm confident that we have such a solid base. And I'm very confident in who it is that's going to be leading the association going forward on both sides of that table that I know for quite a while. Probably for the rest of my life, PPA is going to do just fine. You know, it's, that foundation really is so important. It's in it. I love patterns. I like, you know, talking about patterns that, you know, the pyramid still exists because of their foundation. You know, when you talk about architecture in general, a foundation is what creates something that's long-lasting. And when the foundation is solid, chips and dings in the rest of the facade along the way are never gonna tear into that. So I know we're in great shape. And I'm excited to see where it goes. Not just in my remaining time, but once I, you know, leave the board, and go dark. Steven called it go going dark when he was done. He said I was there for 10 years and then I went dark, because you're you have your finger on the pulse of everything. And then, one day, it just ends. But I'm confident that beyond that, that I'm gonna see some incredible things still continuing to come out because the foundation for it is already laid.

Pat Miller: 25:43

This episode is going dark in just a few moments, but I wanna leave a big old open space here. You're the president. Is there something that we haven't covered? Something you think the members need to hear or something that you think might wrap up this episode in a nice way?

Mark Campbell: 25:57

Boy, what do they need to hear? They need to hear a lot of things. I would say number 1 of that list is don't give up. I just got back from Oklahoma. We were there for the weekend and we're at their convention, and I'm going to give a shout out. I won't mention names, but I'm going to give a shout out to a very young photographer that I met there who was creating some incredible images, walked away with a table full of trophies, and she's been in photography for 1 year. And she told me that she very seldom charges for it. I think they, you know, people get into this business and they think, well, I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy. But here's somebody creating something of great value, and they need to be compensated for that. And I, we had a little discussion, and I told her that, and it's not just her. I think there are a lot of people in our association, or even not in our association, who doubt themselves, who doubt the validity of what they do; regardless of where their skill level is or where their talent level is, they're still providing a service that is valuable to society. And I think it's very easy to get discouraged. It's very easy to give up. But again, look forward 5, 10 steps to where it is you wanna be and work backwards, figure out what it is you need to do to get there, and it is possible. There's nothing you can imagine that isn't possible. And I'm living--

Pat Miller: 27:08

That needs to be on a t shirt someplace. We need a PPA T-shirt with that on it. We need to make that happen. PPA minions, let's get that going on. You said earlier in the episode that you want the membership to know you or to contact you. What's the best way? If someone wanted to give you some feedback on something the organization's doing or a question they might have, what would you like to have done?

Mark Campbell: 27:36

Cool. Anyone but me. No. I'm just kidding. I do get a lot of emails. I get text messages, and occasionally phone calls. But the easiest way if you look in the front of the magazine, every board member and every senior staff member has an email address listed there. And I can tell you that every person who reaches out is heard. It might always not always be the answer they want to hear. You know, a lot of times people don't have access to the data that we do that supports the decisions we make, but we're very big on the why. And if we can explain the whys to people, then sometimes it makes sense. That happened in California earlier in the summer after a conversation, a very volatile subject, and people are very passionate about it. And after I explained why certain decisions were made, they were like, “Huh, that makes sense.” You know, so I have no problem doing that. You know, we don't do anything that we can't justify because people need to remember we're members too. We're not going to do anything that's going to harm ourselves or harm the future of the association. We've come too far and worked too hard to get where we're at to go backwards. But yeah, reach out, email me. If you have access to my phone number, you may not get an answer on the telephone, but you will get a reply if you text. I get so many scam calls. I don't even answer my phone. But I do respond, and anybody who gets an email does respond.

Pat Miller: 28:56

Mr. President, Mark Campbell. It's a real pleasure. Thank you for coming on The Professional Photographer Podcast. I appreciate it.

Mark Campbell: 29:02

Well, thank you for having me, Pat. And I'm glad to see your glasses are doing okay. Inside joke, folks.

Pat Miller: 29:15

My puppy ate my glasses. Mark, thanks for coming on. Talk to you next time.

Mark Campbell: 29:14

Okay, Pat. Thank you.

Pat Miller: 29:15

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of The Professional Photographer Podcast. That was a fun one. I really enjoyed that. I'm already cooking up some really cool stuff for the next time we get together here on the show. Before you go, you know the favor I need to ask. You gotta like and subscribe the show. When you like us and you subscribe and you give us 5 stars, if that's possible on the platform where you get the show, those little actions really help, and I'll give you some examples. First of all, they help the platforms know that this is a show other people should see, so they serve it up to more potential viewers. It also lets us know what you like and what you don't like, so we get feedback from you when you leave a comment about I love what Mark said about this or that. That way we know where to guide the show. And third, most importantly, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. So please, like and subscribe, and leave us your questions, comments, and sarcastic remarks wherever you can. It helps us build a better show. Also, if you're not yet a member of Professional Photographers of America, you are missing the boat. PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in a sustainable and profitable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership at ppa.com. That's ppa.com. I'm Pat Miller, Founder of the Small Business Owners Community. Thanks for joining us on this journey. We appreciate your support, and we'll be back soon with more tools to help you build your business with The Professional Photographer's Podcast. See you next time.