Niche Branding and Overcoming Fear with Shawon Davis

Pat Miller: 00:00

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. Depending on what stat you pull, there are roughly 250,000 professional photographers in the United States. It seems as though every Google search will return a long list of competitors that you feel you have to beat in order to build your business. But what if you weren't competing against a quarter 1,000,000 people? Instead, you were a market of 1. You had established a brand, differentiated your product, and claimed your space as the perfect photographer for your ideal client. I've seen so many business owners bristle at this idea that they should niche themselves. Yes, I'm team niche, that they should niche themselves into a narrow position because they feel like they should be all things to all people. That will give them the most opportunity possible. I disagree. If you're on the planet to do one style of photography for exactly this ideal client, you can build a profitable thriving business that will be fun, easy to explain, and thrilling for you and your ideal customer. The problem is, to do all of that, that takes a lot of courage, takes a lot of guts, and you gotta focus. To coach us towards doing this, we're bringing in one of the industry's leading voices on branding and positioning, Shawon Davis. She's gonna talk us through how to think about it, how to act, and what it means when you offer an amazing transformation for the client you're on the planet to serve. Are you ready to learn? Are you ready to focus? Are you ready to niche? I said that just because it makes team niche so angry. Are you ready to niche? It entertained me. We'll be back with Shawon Davis in just one moment. Shawon Davis, welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast. How are you today?

Shawon Davis: 02:06

I am well, Pat. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm excited to have a conversation with you today.

Pat Miller: 02:12

It's gonna be great. And I know that you don't only help photographers. You help with all types of entrepreneurs. If someone hasn't had the chance to learn from you yet, just tell us a little bit about the business and what you do, and then we'll get into all the photography stuff.

Shawon Davis: 02:26

Yes. Absolutely. So I help my clients who are service-based female entrepreneurs who have wonderful, amazing gifts and talents. I help them to capture the essence of their brand. And I do that through brand strategy as well as brand photography here at my studio. And with that, with the work that we do together, it helps them to stand out. It helps them to attract the clients that they are called to serve. And I absolutely love helping my clients shine and bring that light to their business so that they can put it out and attract the people that they are here to work with.

Pat Miller: 03:03

And that's what we wanna get out of you today. So you know how to take pictures. You know how to brand people. You help all different styles of entrepreneurs. And today, we're gonna help photographers with their brand. And I wanna start with, to me, what is the headline news when it comes to branding. The word brand, it's used so often that it seems like there's a 1,000 different meanings. How would you, branding expert, how would you define a photographer's brand?

Shawon Davis: 03:30

Absolutely. I'll share too where I started. You know, when I started my business and I thought about branding, I considered it to be all of the aesthetic components of what made it visually appealing. Right? I thought that the visual component was going to be the thing that attracted clients to me. And I was a little wrong about that for sure. And when I think about a brand, I want photographers to start in a place of what do I wanna be known for. Right? What reputation do I want to have? And once you figure that part out, then you can create your brand. How do you want what you want to be known for in that reputation. How do you want it to be seen? How do you want it to be felt? And how do you want it to be experienced? And when you have those 3 components, they will weave into your messaging, your vision, your marketing, and overall that client experience that is so important. And not only serving our clients well but having that referral word-of-mouth, marketing that is absolutely, I say, the best for a small business owner.

Pat Miller: 04:39

What you got to there at the end, the experience and the referrals, that's the end of the line. To get there, we've got the client experience. To get there, we've got the messaging and onboarding. And to get there, we've got the communication and the output, and the look, and the feel, but it all begins or at least I would imagine that it all begins with what's in the heart of the photographer. What they want to be known for, like you said. So this isn't a put-on. Right? This is coming directly from our passion and perspective. And how do I identify what we wanna be known for?

Shawon Davis: 05:13

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, too, when it comes to, you know, myself as a photographer, it's great that, of course, we're going to have that technical side dialed in, but it's beyond that. Because we know with the technical part, we're going to deliver a great image photos for our clients. But what is it beyond that? Like, what is the why behind what I'm doing? And like I said too, when it comes to your brand, what do I wanna be known for? How do I wanna be known? What problem am I really solving for my clients? Because at the end of the day, it's definitely more than delivering a beautiful photo.

Pat Miller: 05:50

And you hit on it. Right? What's the problem that you're solving for the clients? And it goes back to our passion and perspective. What problems do I want to solve? So if you're getting into the business or you have a studio right now, maybe you have a bunch of different lines that you sell, is it okay to follow our passion and think I'm gonna serve this transformation for the clients because this is what lights me up and this is what gets me excited?

Shawon Davis: 06:15

I'll say, when I started, I always go back to my experience because I feel that, sure, I can deliver like textbook, you know, business jargon. But when you go to a person's experience, that really matters. Right? It's like, okay, I've got the t-shirts to prove it. I don't want you to wear someone else's name t-shirt. But when I started out, I was definitely figuring things out. I was photographing every person. Right? That was babies and family, the wedding. And it was getting to a place in my business where I started to figure out, I need some momentum going here. And in order to get the momentum in terms of building a business, like seeing it grow and having consistent clients, then I needed to really focus my energy into one thing to see those results that I wanted to get. And I would encourage any photographer, yes, figure out what you're passionate about and and the subject that you enjoy photographing the most. But also to in doing that, think about the problem that you're solving for your clients. I eventually, landed on wedding photography. I felt, at that time, it was everything that I enjoyed. It was the families together. The babies were there. You know, everyone that was important to this couple throughout their life, they were there for that beautiful day. The love, the joy, all of those things that I love, the moments. And I understood my why. I understood a problem that I was solving for my clients, and that really started to get that momentum going in my business.

Pat Miller: 07:59

I want you to reflect on what you're shooting in your studio right now. And I want to, if necessary, rewind this interview and watch Siobhan, like, light up like the 4th July when she started to talk about wedding photography. Seriously, we're talking business blah blah blah. And you started to talk about weddings and just this smile came over. You were just, oh, I love this. That came out of you authentically. And it's easy for us as we're building a studio to say, well, I could make a lot of money if I do this. But we wouldn't have that passion and that excitement that you just demonstrated for us. So I just wanna make sure with your experience, if someone's watching this trying to discover the brand they're really passionate about, it's okay to really listen to that authentic voice because that will end up being the best thing.

Shawon Davis: 08:29

Absolutely. You know, it's something to be motivated. Like, we can hear an inspiring motivational speech that's going to get us fired up, and we can leave from the event or turn the podcast off or stop watching the video. Right? And we can go about our day. And that motivation, it can stay, you know, for some amount of time. But when you're really passionate about what you do and you really understand your why, you're going to have more than that motivation that's temporary. Right? You're going to have deep down in you that why behind what you're doing that motivates you every single day. And not just on the happy, cheery days that we all wanna have, but on those days where it's like, okay. You know, it's a long week or it's raining outside or, you know, I was up last night with the kids or just different things in your life that might be going on too. You're when you go back to your why, and you have that why inside of you, that is, I would say, that is the thing that you need in order to keep you going.

Pat Miller: 09:54

Now we're talking about photographers today, but you help all types of female entrepreneurs. When you have this conversation with someone and you say you say to them, listen, you don't have to do product photography. You could just do weddings, and you allow them to set down those expectations that maybe they put upon themselves or they thought they had to to be profitable. How do you find them react when they realize, wait, I can do what I love and really only what I love? I would imagine that is uplifting to them and empowering to them.

Shawon Davis: 10:24

Yes. For sure. For sure. And I think too, one of the things that I've learned, through reading tons of book, I wish I could quote the author at this moment, but these are not my own words. But understanding what your value ladder is too in your business. So while you may offer wedding photography, there might be other ways that you can serve that client too. I know I've seen some wedding photographers while boudoir may not be the forefront of their business. They have incorporated it as a wedding photographer to then serve those brides for, you know, another problem that they could solve for them. So there are different ways that you can establish a value ladder within your business where a client can meet you as a wedding photographer, and there are other things that you may offer that will solve a problem for that very same client. So I wouldn't feel that you necessarily have to be in a box per se. But when you think about what's forward-facing, you do wanna be known for that one thing. So if you are the wedding photographer who also offers boudoir for your wedding clients, that can be something that's not forward-facing as a part of your brand. You can just keep it in-house and maybe have that conversation once a client gets into your ecosystem, you can share other things that you can offer that can help them. So I hope that that gives you some encouragement when it comes to choosing one thing to focus on that. Yes. You can do others, but you wanna have that main thing be your main thing and forward-facing to your audience.

Pat Miller: 12:04

Talk about t-shirts. Have the main thing be the main thing. That we need a T-shirt that says that. That's great. Okay. So you've taught us and reminded us it's okay to follow our why, to follow our passion, to be known for the main thing, and we can offer other items in the value ladder. Got it. Effective, important. But now we're gonna get inside the head. And as I don't know about your head, but my head's got a lot of doubt and a lot of uncertainty sometimes. If we know it's okay to be authentic and we know because Shawon told us to be someone that's known for the main thing, it can still be difficult to claim that space and differentiate from everyone else. Why is that so dang hard?

Shawon Davis: 12:46

Yeah. That's, I have that T-shirt too, Pat. It is hard. And I will say the hard doesn't go away. I feel that and I've seen this in my own business, starting out, becoming a wedding photographer, pivoting over into branding, working with the clients that I work with today, you still will go through that mindset component, which is so important as entrepreneurs. And sometimes it's we can say it's the inner credit inner critic. It can be imposter syndrome, feeling that I'm not enough. I don't have enough. I don't have credentials. All the things. Right? And it's getting to a place where you are focusing on your mindset, using tools, using strategies, reading books to help you to grow in that place. And to be more, I'll say with myself. One of the things that is important to me is journaling. Right? My affirmations, my gratitude journal, all of those things are important because they are working on myself at the beginning of the day and helping me to be in a place of gratitude, also to affirming who I am. You know, if that's talking to yourself in the mirror is if that's having post-it notes around you just to encourage yourself. So filling yourself up so that you can work with your clients from a place of abundant, and you're not having those constant mindset struggles. And I'll say as an entrepreneur, mindset is always, like, number 1. It's on the top of the list because you need it. It's the muscle, right, that you really need to work and improve upon. Because I said, as I mentioned, you're gonna go through different stages and phases of your business. And that those little things, the inner critic, imposter syndrome, those things can easily creep in. And I would say seek out books, podcasts. There's so many great tools and resources to help you focus on that area because you do need it for sure as an entrepreneur.

Pat Miller: 14:55

Now there's a photographer watching this right now that's like mindset. If I just have better images, I'll make more money. I'll be more successful. You like referencing your own journey. How long did it take you to realize, woah. Wait a minute. I can business really good, but if I'm not on point in my mindset, I'm gonna struggle. Is that something you got right away? Is that something you had to train yourself to learn?

Shawon Davis: 15:15

Not at all. It wasn't it wasn't something right away. For 1, I did have a career as a realtor, but I didn't focus in that business as a small business owner at the time. I just didn't I wasn't thinking in that way. I was with a small company, and I had all of the tools. Social media wasn't a thing. And let me also say, this was back in the day, like nineties. So no Facebook.

Pat Miller: 15:41

Yeah.

Shawon Davis: 15:42

No anything. Right? We had one photo, our main address, and that was it. And so becoming a photographer and then seeing not only am I a photographer. I'm a small business owner. I have a business to run here. And I would say I was maybe 3 or 4 years in. 2015, definitely a definitive year for me in terms of, okay, We've gotta align your values. We need your we need to work on your mindset. We need to have a growth mindset as well. So it was 2015 that I really started to pour into myself more from a standpoint of reading more books. Podcasts were a huge thing. That's when I started journaling, having my morning routine. That's when those things became established in my business. So it wasn't right away. But my photographer fans that are watching, you don't have to wait. I said you don't have to wait 3 or 4 years in. I would encourage you now, to start. Don't wait. Start now. Because our mindset, like I said, it's the muscle that we really want to, utilize and have fit and strong in our businesses.

Pat Miller: 16:52

But we don't know what we don't know, Shawon. And that's why mindset is so tough because someone like you, expert, helped a bunch of people, comes on and says, hey. If you're not taking care of your mindset, if you don't have good mental hygiene, you're not gonna get where you wanna go. But when you're on the other side of the screen saying, okay. I know Shawon knows what she's talking about, but I really haven't put in the work to take care of my mindset. Is it holding me back? Is it stopping me from getting to where I wanna go? Is it really gonna make a difference? I just wanna make sure before we get off this point because it's so crucial. If someone puts in the work daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, they're really leaning into how I think, what I consume, the reminders that I give myself, the things I see in front of me. That stuff really pays off. I just wanna hear it from you one more time because I know it's important. Come on. Give it to us.

Shawon Davis: 17:40

Yes. It pays off. And I will say this too. Sometimes, we feel that when we're starting something or when we have a goal, right, we want to for I'll speak from my experience. I have this goal. I'm so excited about it. I can accomplish this goal in a month. Right? I wanna get it all done and it's all set. I'm ready to go. And I would encourage you to take a step back. Yes. We have a goal. Right? The goal to work on our mindset, but it doesn't have to all be done in a month time. Right? It's a little incremental small steps that add up. The 1% of your day. Right? If you can start with 5 minutes to sit down and and just write out gratitude, a list of things you're grateful for, starting out with 5 minutes. And I'm gonna shout out my 5-minute journal. That's one of my favorite tools. It literally takes 5 minutes at the start of my day. And at the end of the day for some reflection. What were some of the highlights? What were some of the lessons that I learned? Right? And 5 minutes, if you have, we have 5 minutes. You've got 5 minutes in you. It will definitely add up, and you will see a big difference. Big difference. Do it for 30 days. You'll, you're gonna see a difference at the end of that 30 days.

Pat Miller: 18:55

That's really unique. I've heard a lot of people journaling in the morning. I don't think I've ever heard someone journaling at the end of the day. In your experience, how do they differ? I think today's gonna be this way, and it end up being that way. Like, what do you find over a 30-day period when you're capturing your thoughts at the end of the day? Because I don't know if I've ever heard that before.

Shawon Davis: 19:15

Yeah. The 5-minute journal, I love tools that give me guidance. And this journal is one of them. And as you mentioned, the start of the day is a little bit different. You were writing down gratitude, your affirmation. There's a line for that. There's also three lines for you to write down, what would make today great. Three things that'll make today a great day. So you were on my list this morning, Pat. We're gonna have a great podcast. And then at the end of the day, it's that time for reflection. And I love encouraging photographers, small business owners to take that pause, whether it's daily that you have 5 minutes to do it, or you get to a point where you can set aside a day for reflection. But with this journal, the point is to have that time for reflection at the end of your day so that you can write down very briefly what was a highlight from today and maybe what was a lesson that I learned from today. Those lessons are really important too in shaping our growth and taking that time to pause and reflect to really think about, you know, what lesson what was the number one takeaway from today?

Pat Miller: 20:25

It's the one thing we all share as entrepreneurs. The way that we think everyone's got the same opportunity. We all start at the starting line. And if we take care of what we think and what we put in our head, that can become an unfair advantage against our competition. So thank you for doubling down on that. I wanted to spend some time really exploring that because stepping into our brand, having the courage to become who we want to be, following our why, that takes guts, and guts start up here. So with that in mind, if someone's got multiple lines and they really just wanna do weddings, they're gonna let some of the other stuff go, but they're nervous. They're thinking, if I narrow my focus, you know, I make $15 a year doing product photography. I really don't wanna let it go, but weddings could be so much bigger. So if someone's feeling some of those what ifs, if you were, you know, coaching them to narrow their focus a little bit, how would you talk them through that?

Shawon Davis: 21:20

Yeah, I would say definitely the line, I believe, is from Tony Robbins. Where your attention go, your inner energy flows. So the thing that you are focused on, that's the thing that's going to grow. And I've been in this place too, t-shirt, t-shirt for this one too. And just wanting to do, we are so many of us, some of my photographer friends watching right now, you have so many amazing gifts that you've been given. Right? And it's like, okay, What direction do I go in in terms of sharing my gifts with the world? Right? And I definitely understand, and I can feel, I get it when it comes to making that decision of, okay, where am I going to focus? Because ultimately, what you put your energy into, that is going to grow. And when we are divvying up our energy all over the place, we are tired. I have been tired from doing that because I'm trying to do so many different things. Also, too, and as a photographer, when you're thinking about even setting up your client experience. Right? If you're offering different services, if you're a wedding photographer, senior, you offer portraits maybe to families. That does each of those services will you're delivering a different experience perhaps. And also, too, when you think about who is the target audience that I'm speaking to, it's really hard to consistently create content as it is and throw into the mix. I'm speaking to multiple audiences. I'm speaking to different people that I'm wanting to attract to my business. So I would encourage you figure out what it is that you want to be forward-facing. I'll also share from experience. When I was a wedding photographer, I still photograph women in the background of my business. And it wasn't until I got to a place of, okay, what's the next stage of my life look like? What's the next journey going to be about? And I decided to pivot into serving female small business owners with the strategy and the photography, and I made a decision. Was it easy? No. It was not easy. It was hard to turn it around, especially during the time of 2020. Okay. But, I will say that looking back from 2019 to where this journey has taken me today, I'm so thankful, grateful that I did it. It's opened so many opportunities. I've photographed and worked with so many different business owners and hard at the beginning, but today feels amazing.

Pat Miller: 24:04

It's a great success story. And we can look at you as an example of someone that found their focus, followed their passion, and look where they are now. So thank you for being a proof case of, yes, this works. This is where we go. But let's go back on the journey then. So you're the after photo. I'm the before photo. Right? Where do we get stuck in the process as we take these steps? We know what we wanna stand for, but now we have to go through the work. Where do we get stuck?

Shawon Davis: 24:30

Yes. I say that we get stuck, and I see my clients get stuck in this place a lot. I would say this would be the number one place. And I always go back to myself because I want you guys to understand too. I get it. Like, I've been here. But number one place of getting stuck is I have I can photograph. I'd make beautiful photos. I love what I do. I know my why. And then fear creeps in. We are afraid to put ourselves out there. We are afraid to perhaps be the faces of our brand. We are afraid just to step out and say, wave my little flag. Like, this is what I'm doing. Right? And I see so many clients get stuck in that place of, I'm just afraid. I'm afraid to step out there. I'm afraid to put myself out there. And working through that is definitely going back to that mindset component. And whether it's working with someone or having someone who's your accountability person, someone to share that you're having this struggle with really helps too. If you have that person too that's going to push you and encourage you, like, you can do it. Remember why you're doing it. You have to do it. You have this amazing gift. You just can't let it not be given to the people that you're here to serve and work with. And it's really getting over getting over that place and just taking those baby steps. Okay? Maybe the baby step is, okay, I took my own I took brand photos. Right? So I have some pictures to put out. Now let me think about some amazing content that I'm putting out. And when I'm putting out content and when I'm doing those steps to put myself out there, I'm thinking about the client that's on the other end, the transformation that I get to provide to that person. How is their life going to be different? You know, because I get to work with them. I get to solve help them solve this problem that they have and just start to take those baby steps and everything that you put out is for my client. Get that person get that ideal client that name. This is for Sherry. This is for Michelle. I'm so excited I get to work and do the work that I've been given to do. So I would say that is that's the place where people tend to get stuck.

Pat Miller: 26:48

We talk about that all the time. The small business owners community that I lead, this recurring I'm scared, I'm scared is something we talk about all the time. And I wanna bounce something off of you that I say to people when this comes up because we can talk about how we're gonna help the client, and we can focus on the client transformation, which is the right thing to do. And if that's still not getting across, maybe a little bit more of a direct way that I'll say it to them when I coach them is, you know, in a way, if you're not willing to share your gifts, it's really selfish. You're really harming a client by not helping them with the transformation that's needed and sometimes that will snap someone out of it saying, oh, well, I want the brides to feel beautiful, or I want the mother of the bride to get the photo of the bouquet toss or whatever it might be. And sometimes that can break that trance of inward-looking selfishness of I'm not enough to say, wait a minute. I need to help and serve these people. Now you're probably gonna tell me that's not good, but that's how I sometimes go about it. Does that make sense?

Shawon Davis: 27:47

I love it. Yes. I'm like virtual high-fives, Pat.

Pat Miller: 27:52

Yes. Alright. Good. I was hoping I wasn't like breaking a branding goddess rule thereby throwing that out there. But it helps wake some people up sometimes because we get so caught up in our own stuff. Oh, I'm the main character. It's all about me. No. If you've got a gift, you get the opportunity to change someone's life with it. So quit worrying about yourself. Go tell the world and share your gifts. Alright. Alright. Good. I just wanted to bounce that off of you. Okay.

Shawon Davis: 28:18

Yeah.

Pat Miller: 28:18

So if someone takes this bold step, someone is standing for something, someone is out there ready to provide the transformation, they jump out of the plane, what are some of the first signs that it's working? What do they hear from their clients? What do their colleagues tell them? How do they get those first little pieces of, okay? I'm on the right track and I made the right decision.

Shawon Davis: 28:39

That's really good. I would say it's going back to where we started. What do you wanna be known for? What do you want that reputation to be? How do you want your brand to be seen, felt, and experienced? And once you start getting testimonials, you start hearing clients to say the very thing that you set out with in the beginning, you know that you're on the right track. You're going to it's going to align with you in a way that you're just you're all in. Like, I'm going for the races. Right? I'm all in. And so it's getting that feedback, you know, your friends, you know, giving you feedback. It's so wow. That goes such a long way because many of them have been with you probably from the beginning of your journey. Right? And they can see, oh my gosh. You've changed. I see everything that's going on. You know, just to give you those, words affirming words, you know, hearing that and they will resonate because you know the place that you started and you know the brand that you wanted to build. And when you hear those words, it's definitely confirmation.

Pat Miller: 29:50

Let's talk about the business advantages of being more narrow, of being known for something. Because before we make the transformation, we can lean into, well, I don't wanna lose 10% of the business by stopping it. I don't wanna just focus on one thing. But when you become the best person in Milwaukee to offer this service, there are business advantages. Higher rates, easier bookings. Give us some of the good stuff that when we have the courage to focus comes to the business.

Shawon Davis: 30:17

Absolutely. So one thing that I always go back to is the client experience because your clients are gold. Right? When you have amazing clients, you want to work with more people who are just like them. So when you are delivering on that experience and they start sharing with their friends, as I mentioned, who are just like them, more of the people you wanna work with, you know, that that is definitely one of those feel-good parts of making the hard choice. Right? And I will say to you, your path will be different. Right? Everybody's path is different. I share with you my path to getting here and going through the experience, the journey that I had to get to, but it also now helps me to serve my clients. So I want you to lead. I want you to hear and lean into everything that Pat and I are jamming with today. But I also want you to be able to have reflection and choose what path makes sense for you. I don't want to say jump and the net will appear. I don't wanna share that because like I said, it can be hard. It's not easy. But those golden nuggets on the other side, when you start having those repeat clients or clients that are referring you or clients who can't even get out of the studio fast enough before they're on the phone with their friend who referred them saying, oh my gosh. Thank you so much. This was amazing. I feel amazing. These were more than photos. My confidence is boosted. Like, all of those all of those good words, definitely feel you. And, yeah, they make it worth going through the hard things. Right?

Pat Miller: 32:05

Absolutely. We'll finalize the interview with this. I wanna hear a success story. I wanna hear about a client that you worked with. Doesn't have to be a photographer. Someone that came to you and said, Shawon, help me. You help focus their brand, and this is what happened to their business. Give us a success story to end.

Shawon Davis: 32:22

Alright. One of my favorites. Oh, my gosh. A dear friend of mine owns an interior design business, and she merged her business with another business, Kayla and Sean, design, organize together. And it was bringing both of these brands together. And to start out, my friend and I, when she was in her business alone, she was a solopreneur, and we were getting her out of her comfort zone. She's amazing at what she does, but getting her out of her comfort zone, being the face of a brand, showing her processes, systems, what makes her different. And then it was like, okay. Now I'm gonna bring on another person, and we wanna have one singular brand. So getting to work with them for a year as they went through this process of what is now designed, organized, gathered to help them develop their brand. We had I think we had quarterly shoots for a whole year where we really help them to stand out and attract the clients they wanted to work with. They are doing amazing. And it was wonderful to see that transformation happen from solopreneurs to bringing the team together to defining that and helping them in that process. And just to see what they're doing now is remarkable. And they are yeah. They're wonderful.

Pat Miller: 33:45

That's a beautiful story and something that I hope every viewer of this show and listener of the show has as a takeaway of our conversation today. Shawon Davis, thank you so much for coming on The Professional Photographer Podcast. I appreciate it.

Shawon Davis: 33:57

Thank you so much, Pat, for having me.

Pat Miller: 33:59

Thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of the Professional Photographer Podcast. I'm already looking forward to the next time we get together. Now before you go, can I ask a favor? I hope so because I'm gonna ask it. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe wherever you are watching or listening, and leave a comment. That's really important because it's gonna help me and the team know that we're providing the content that you want and the stuff that you love. And if you're not a member yet of Professional Photographers of America, what are you doing? Because you are missing out. PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in a sustainable and profitable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership atppa.com. That's ppa.com. I'm Pat Miller, founder of the Small Business Owners Community. Thanks for joining us on this journey. We appreciate your support and we'll be back soon with more tools to help you build your business with The Professional Photographer Podcast.