Marketing for Photographers: Build a Brand That Books with Sandra Coan

Pat Miller: 00:00

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. Oh, marketing. Marketing. Who knew that that was a four letter word? You have to go out and tell your story because clients are good. But what do you say to attract the clients you wanna work with? And how come writing stuff is so much harder than taking pictures of things? And where should we do our marketing? Should we be on Instagram? Should we be dancing around on TikTok? And what about SEO? Is that still a thing? Blogging? Is this the nineties? Well, guess what? Sandra Coan is here to answer all of those questions. We're gonna have a talk today about who you are and what you should do to attract great clients. If you've got questions about marketing, Sandra has answers. She's standing by. We'll talk to her next. Sandra Coan, welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast. How are you today?

Sandra Coan: 01:03

I'm doing so good. How are you?

Pat Miller: 01:05

I'm great. I'm going golfing after this, so I get to talk to you, then I get to go hit golf balls. Today is a banner day, my friend.

Sandra Coan: 01:14

Good for you. I'm so happy to be a part of it.

Pat Miller: 01:16

Yes. You make it better for sure. If someone hasn't met you yet, tell us who you are and what you do.

Sandra Coan: 01:21

Yeah. Well, I'm Sandra Coan, and I am an award-winning portrait photographer based in Seattle, Washington. I'm also an industry educator and an author, and so, you know, I wear a lot of hats. But I'm so happy to be here. I've been a PPA member forever, so this is, like, such a treat.

Pat Miller: 01:40

I love that you're contributing to the show, and we love doing the show. And I love that you contributed at Imaging. How was Imaging this year?

Sandra Coan: 01:47

It was so fun. And, you know, I have to be honest. That was the first time I'd ever been to Imaging. Can you believe that?

Pat Miller: 01:54

Oh, you know, everyone should go.

Sandra Coan: 01:56

Everyone should go. It was so great, and the community is just lovely. Just such a warm, welcoming group. And, you know, everybody in the class was really engaged, and I had a great time. I can't wait for next year. I'm hooked.

Pat Miller: 02:09

Yeah. Can't wait till next year. I think it's Nashville next year. Right?

Sandra Coan: 02:13

Yeah.

Pat Miller: 02:14

Oh, gosh. Yeah. I love Nashville. Have you been to Nashville before?

Sandra Coan: 02:17

I never have. And it's funny because I actually have family and some of our best friends live there, and so it's about time I go.

Pat Miller: 02:26

Alright. We're going on Broadway Street. We're gonna go get the real Nashville experience. It's gonna be fun.

Sandra Coan: 02:31

I'm here for it.

Pat Miller: 02:32

Alright. Let's start at the beginning. You're making photography look great, but it wasn't always that way in your journey. How did you get started as a photographer?

Sandra Coan: 02:42

I got started as a photographer, honestly, out of desperation. So I was a kindergarten teacher working for Seattle Public Schools, and I just wasn't able to make a living wage on my teacher salary as that is and that was really common. Most of the teachers that were at the school where I was at had side hustles. They would wait tables after work or that sort of thing. And I didn't want to do that. Teaching kindergarten is really hard. It's really exhausting and the last thing I had energy for was waiting tables after work. And so around that same time, one of my best friends was pregnant with her first baby and it was the 90s. So we were all still kind of reeling from that that beautiful photo of Demi Moore that Annie Leibovitz had taken that ended up on the cover of, I think it was Vanity Fair, you know, that maternity. And it was kind of the image that launched the maternity industry. We just didn't know it at the time. But, anyway, so my friend Ginger was pregnant, and I was like, oh, let's do a photo because I've done photos for fun, you know, on the side. I was like, let's do a photo like a Demi Moore photo of you. And so we did, and she loved it. And then she was actually the one. She was like, you know, you should start offering this kind of photography on the side to supplement your income. So you don't have to get, you know, like a waiting tables job. And I was like, oh, that's a good idea. So that's what I did. I took that picture of Ginger and I turned it into like a little postcard with my name and phone number on it. And I put it all around town at every coffee shop and maternity store I could find, and people started to call. And within three years of that, I actually ended up quitting my teaching job and just going photography full time.

Pat Miller: 04:22

Isn't that amazing that a friend and a magazine, that's your origin story. Is that weird?

Sandra Coan: 04:28

I don't know. I think a lot of people kind of fall into photography as a career. You know, like, you do it, you love it, you get good at it. People start to notice. People start asking you. I think that's kind of a somewhat common story, don't you think?

Pat Miller: 04:44

Yeah. It seems common. I don't know a lot of people that went through college knowing they were gonna be a photographer or went to high school knowing they wanted to be an entrepreneur that took pictures. It happens to be something that we realize through the suggestion of someone else or we see opportunity. I mean, we're smart. We see opportunity, and we run through it. Let's reflect back to when you were getting it started. What are some of the things that you know now that you wish you knew then?

Sandra Coan: 05:08

Oh, man. Let me count the ways. I mean, basically, everything. I came into it so fresh. I didn't know anything. Honestly, I didn't even own my own camera at that time. I was borrowing a camera from my boyfriend who ended up marrying, so it all worked out. But, yeah. So, I was just winging it. I didn't know that there was, like, a photography industry. I didn't know that there were people and organizations like PPA that I could learn from or lean on. And, as a result, you know, the first several years were very rocky, very bumpy, very stressful. And so if I could go back in time, I would tell myself, like, hey, guess what? There are other people who do this for a living, and an entire industry that's there to support you and to help you. And it doesn't have to be so hard. You don't have to do it alone.

Pat Miller: 06:05

Yeah. For sure. Did you have a big break along the way?

Sandra Coan: 06:08

Yeah. I had several. Like, it's interesting. Actually, at conference season this year, somebody asked me, one of the students in my class, you know, how did you get from–because I always tell my story how I started and they're like, how did you get from side hustle, teaching kindergarten, you know, to standing on stages teaching people? And I was like, that is a really good question. Because I do think it was a series of small breaks and small opportunities that led to the big breaks that really propelled my career. So for me, you know, I started in the nineties when we were all shooting film. Right? Because that's what everybody was doing. And then digital cameras came along in the early 2000s, and I gave it a try. And I was like, oh, I'll do this. Everybody's doing this. I didn't like it. I didn't like the way the images looked. I wasn't getting the same quality photos. It felt harder. I didn't wanna spend all my time on the computer around that same time, I got married. I had babies. I had twins. So I had two babies at the same time. I was like, I don't have time for this. So I actually went back to film in about, like, 2010. And because I was working with film and I live and work in Seattle, then I had to figure out my lighting. Right? Because I couldn't just bump up my ISO at that point.I got a studio, so things had evolved. And so I kinda taught myself this system for lighting that I use now and that I teach now. And that started catching people's eyes because it was really different. And even at that time, even though it hadn't been that long since digital cameras came along, the fact that I was still using film in studio, working with kids and families, using artificial light was just enough to kind of pique people's interest to be like, what's going on? So, it kind of started where I met, I got in touch with Kodak. And that was a big break. Kodak obviously is an iconic company. And so I started kind of doing some projects for Kodak and doing that. And then, I was asked to speak on CreativeLive and they wanted me to come in and teach film photography. And then, so I did one whole class on film photography and then one class on using off-camera flash artificial lighting with film. And that was really the big break because, you know, that was when CreativeLive was, like, so big. And so it really just gave me a platform and allowed me to reach a lot of people. Then from then, I started being asked to speak at conferences and that sort of thing, and I kind of evolved from there. So I would say that was my big break, but I wouldn't have gotten there without these little smaller, like, pebbles, you know, along the way.

Pat Miller: 08:52

Now you like to help others by helping them better understand marketing for photographers.

Sandra Coan: 08:58

Absolutely.

Pat Miller: 08:58

And one thing you shared that I love is that photographers are different. They're unique, and they have to approach marketing in a unique way. How are we unique?

Sandra Coan: 09:05

What we do is really different from a lot of industries. You know, a lot of industries when you think of just, like, marketing, what that looks like, let's say for a shoe store. I don't know why I'm saying a show store, just like whatever. Right? Like it's a different thing. It's like, okay, well, you're still selling a product. There's still a service involved, but it's pretty cut and dry. And so the way a business like that can approach marketing is just a lot different. Whereas, like, the kind of work we do, first of all, most photographers are you know, if you're a family photographer, if you're a wedding photographer, if you're a headshot photographer, you're working with people in moments in their life where they feel kind of could be very vulnerable, could be very emotional. Right? So there's this real human element to it that is important. We're also a service as well as a product. At the same time, we're selling our vision. You know, we're artists. And so how we see things and how we interpret things are part of that product that we're selling. So we're selling our vision. So it's not as cut and dry as other industries when it comes to marketing. And so that's what I teach photographers. You know, when you're approaching your marketing, you have to kinda take all that into consideration. And I kinda boil it down just by saying, you know, most industries, most companies market with one way, you know, it's a lot about, marketing copy, what you're saying, you know, there's some branding elements and that kind of stuff. But, you know, with our work, we market in two ways because we're marketing with our work and with our words. And really understanding how those are separate and then also where they overlap is, I think, the magic of creating a really solid marketing system for photography businesses. And that's why I love to teach. I'm really passionate about it because I think it's really fun. Because once you get it working, once you get both of those dialed in and working together, it's really fun to see it take off.

Pat Miller: 11:06

Inside a city like Seattle, there are hundreds, if not thousands of people walking around with a camera. But what makes you different is your own story. So let's talk about telling your own story and why photographers are sometimes afraid to tell their own story. Why is that?

Sandra Coan: 11:21

I have a lot of thoughts around that. You know, everybody, there's not two people in the entire world, the entire planet who can see something the same way. You know, it's just not possible. And that's why you can be at a conference or, you know, in a workshop, whatever, and have 20 different people, taking pictures of the exact same thing and everybody's image is gonna look different because there no two people on the planet can see something the exact same way. No people can capture it the exact same way. And I think as visual artists, that's something for us that's really important for us to consider and to remember. Because what happens is somewhere along your artistic journey, you picked up a camera, and you were inspired to pick up a camera because you wanted to capture the world the way you see it. That specific thing that is your vision and your voice. But for some reason, as soon as we start charging for what we do, we stop trusting whatever that vision is. And we go into this like, oh, I've got to do what everybody else is doing. I've got to know what's on trend right now. Who's the most popular photographer in my city or my town and what are they doing? And I should probably be like that too if I wanna make money. And so we take this thing, this really special point of view, artistic voice or whatever, and we just like throw it in the trash and we start like chasing trends and doing that stuff. I did it too. Like this was a big mistake I did in my business too. It's super common. But what happens is when you're doing that, there's a lot of people doing that. So you know your example like I live in Seattle. There's a million photographers in Seattle and a lot of them get stuck in that. I think the biggest mistake photographers make chasing the trends trying to do what you think you should. And what happens when you do that is you just become one of many because when you're trying to make work that looks like what's popular, what's on trend is going to look like what's popular and what's on trend, which means there's probably 25 different photographers creating that exact same look. But when you can back up, go back to that original point of view, that original inspiration, you know, your look, and just really focus on it and really lean on it, then suddenly you're the only one showing that because it's an authentic expression of your actual artistic vision. And when you're the only one creating it, it changes the value. And so instead of just being one of many where people are really gonna start comparing you on pricing, suddenly you're just the only one. And if people want what you're creating and there's always somebody who's gonna want it, it's in more demand, it has more value. And that's exactly what happened in my own business. Like, I can speak from experience because I had a clear vision when I got started. I had a point of view. I had a way that I love to work. As soon as I started charging, I started chasing everything else. I actually started photographing weddings. I, like, launched as a photo-journalistic wedding photographer. I had never even been to a wedding at that point, Pat. Like, I didn't know what I was doing. I just was like, well, I guess if you're gonna make money as a photographer, you need to be a wedding photographer and, like, photojournalism was the trend. Even though I'd spent three years building a brand as a maternity photographer, but I didn't know that that that's what I had been doing. So then I did like these ridiculous tried to do this, like, wedding career for, like, five years, completely burnt myself out. At that point, I also had, like, newborn twins. I was like, I am over it. And it took me getting to the point where I was just gonna quit. Until I was like, hey, if this whole thing is burning down, then at least I'm gonna burn it down on my terms. And I'm just gonna go into the studio and I'm just gonna create the way I wanna create. And if nobody likes it and nobody buys it and whatever, I'll quit, and I'll get a job as a barista. Like, I was just really just at that point.

Pat Miller: 15:08

But that moment is an absolute gift, and I just wanna stop the car right here. Someone has a preference for how they think something should be lit. Someone has a preference for how they pose people, for color, for post editing, whatever it might be. How do you know if it's something you just like or if it's an emerging style? Because it's something you can lean into if you embrace it, but it might just be a personal preference. So how do you develop that personal style that is authentic so you can go then tell your authentic story?

Sandra Coan: 15:38

Yeah. Well, you just focus on it, and you don't even worry if it's an emerging trend or whatever. You're just like, if it lights you up, it lights you up and you know that. I tell the photographers I mentor, I'm like, look at the work you were creating before you ever thought you were gonna actually be a professional photographer. Like, you've left yourself breadcrumbs. What was your point? You know, what was your point of view? I always give the example when I was 17, I went to France for the first time. And I was sitting in front of the Louvre, in front of the pyramids, and all the other kids were taking pictures of the pyramids. And I was taking pictures of people's faces. And you know because I'm a portrait photographer, I'm drawn to people. So I think really tapping into that authentic voice is about putting on the blinders which is hard in today's social media age, but really putting on the blinders and only looking at your work and really leaning into, like, what do you love? What could you do a thousand times? What lights you up? What is your point of view? And, of course, you know, you can have ways where you need to learn within that. Like, so for me, it's like I knew what I liked, but I was limited by my lack of light. So I learned how to create natural-looking light with strobes and flash, you know. So there's that's where the learning pieces come in, but no one can ever teach you how to be yourself. That's something you have to be brave enough to listen to and pursue.

Pat Miller: 17:00

There's a cheat code for finding that bravery. One of the best books I've ever read, Rick Rubin's book. It's called, The Creative Act: A Way of Being. And by the way, if you watch the podcast, the books back here are special on purpose. So if you ever, like, stop and zoom in and see what's on the shelf, this is like the hall of fame of books. But this book, The Creative Act by Rick Rubin, not a plug, just I'm telling you. The reason why it's special, if you don't know who Rick Rubin is, one of the greatest rock and rap producers of all time, his point of view on creativity is the audience comes last. It is all about you and your creative vision and your heart and your inspiration. And when you make great work, it will find an audience as opposed to shooting for a client. And that's, like, the next thing to talk about. So we have our authenticity, but then we get hired for people and get a bunch of client-centered work. So how do we balance those two things?

Sandra Coan: 17:52

Well, that's where the marketing piece comes in. So I'm so glad you asked. So, you know, for photographers, you market with your work and your words. So your work when you're showing your authentic style consistently, so consistently is the key. That means your work as the photographer is to know what it is that you do and then educate yourself, have the skills to be able to create that rain or shine, day or night, every single time you pick up the camera and you show it. So that's where learning lining, learning your posing, you know, all that kind of comes into place. But that's all to build that signature style, your style. Then your job is to show that work consistently. So someone looks at your portfolio, it all looks like your work. It all looks like it was photographed by the same photographer. And then what's gonna happen? And then you balance that with your words. You know, how you talk about it, who you're talking to. But when your work is really consistent like that and you're consistently putting it out there, intentionally, you know, like, as a form of marketing, then it's gonna find those people. And the people who want it are gonna want it, and the people who don't aren't. And they're gonna know within, like, three seconds because they're gonna look at it. They're gonna be like, "Yeah, I like that. I want that," or "I don't like that." And that's okay too. But that's how you pull in those people is that consistent marketing with your work. Does that make sense?

Pat Miller: 19:08

I like that. Sure, it does. And I like the discussion on personal brand, overall feel, your style. That will guide us in our decision-making, but now get down to the decision-making. Let's talk about tactics. So what's working right now? Where should we be spending our time when it comes to building the marketing for the studio?

Sandra Coan: 19:27

For as far as marketing with your words, like marketing copy, where you place your energy, what you say?

Pat Miller: 19:32

I'm curious about should we be doing Instagram ads? Should we be worried about SEO? Should we still be blogging? Should we be doing live videos?

Sandra Coan: 19:40

Okay. Yes. So, unpopular opinion by Sandra Coan. I think social media is totally overrated. Like, if you really want big bang for your marketing buck, focusing on your SEO is still the number one way to go. And the best, easiest way to quickly grow your SEO is through consistent blogging, which I know every photographer listening to this just like groaned. Don't turn it off. Keep it. Hear me out because I know people hate blogging. I think people hate blogging because they've just been doing it wrong. Blog you know, the old way of blogging is that, you know, we throw up a bunch of pictures and we talk about the session and how cute the session was and how much we love the client and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that doesn't that doesn't work anymore. People don't wanna hear that anymore. Nobody's gonna read that anymore. If you wanna share your work, you share your work in your portfolio. Your portfolio is your portfolio. Your blog is your blog. Your blog is the place where you really lean into creating what I call client-centered content. So you are speaking directly to your clients, you're answering their questions, you're talking about their concerns. You know, so for my clients, you know, I'd be like, oh, how do you best prepare for your newborn session? What should I wear? What age does the baby have to be? What if my toddler misbehaves? So you're like taking those things that your clients actually wanna know about, and that is what you're blogging about. And the reason why that's so powerful, why it will grow your SEO is because people are literally sitting down at their computer and they're typing those things in. They wanna know. So if you have a blog post or a piece of content on your website that's answering those questions, Google's gonna serve it up to them on page one. They're gonna click on it. They're gonna read it. They're gonna be like, oh, this person must really know what they're doing. They totally were in my head. I had that exact question that builds trust, and trust equals sales. Always, always, always. And so consistent blogging. The blog bots want to see high-quality content on your website that is being refreshed on the regular. So that's a blog. You do it once a month. I swear to you, you'll be in a different place by this time next year.

Pat Miller: 21:52

Let's make sure it's super clear, though. And maybe everybody else got this, but I wanna make sure that it's really clear. We used to blog about the clients that have already paid us. I worked with the Miller family. They were great. Look at how cute the kids are. Now we're creating blogs about the people who haven't hired us yet and the questions they have. Is that the right way to think about it?

Sandra Coan: 22:09

Such a great summary.

Pat Miller: 22:11

Yes. Excellent. I got one right. I don't even have to write that down. I think I remembered that one. Okay. SEO, thank you for that. Blogging, just get over it people and do it.

Pat Miller: 22:19

How about advertising? Is that a part of our mix anymore?

Sandra Coan: 22:23

It can be, but I think for most photographers, you know, what is your client load a year? You know, for most family photographers, I have a high volume studio. So I work with a couple hundred families a year. But most photographers, you know, if you're doing 40 to 50 sessions a year, that's a really, really good, you know, client rate, I guess. I don't know what the word is that I'm looking for, but, you know what I'm saying? Like, you're busy. And so it's completely possible to get that amount of clients with just good old-fashioned, organic marketing. If you're coming up on page one of Google in your city with this high-quality content, you're gonna hit that. Where advertising comes in really handy is when you wanna amplify an organic system that's already working. So if you have a really good organic marketing system and you wanna scale, maybe you wanna bring in associates or something like that, that's when you start putting some advertising dollars behind it just so just to get more reach. But advertising on its own doesn't work if you don't already have that good organic system, then you just waste your money.

Pat Miller: 23:28

What about things that you think aren't as impactful as they should be?

Sandra Coan: 23:32

What do you mean? Oh, can you repeat that one more time?

Pat Miller: 23:35

Sure. So what's not as impactful as it should be?

Sandra Coan: 23:38

Oh, definitely Instagram. I love Instagram too. Listen. It's fun, but it's amazing to me the amount of energy that photographers, put towards Instagram and really stress out about their numbers and are they posting every day and what they're saying. And most of your clients aren't gonna come from Instagram. But you will. I mean, I still get clients from Instagram, but the pipeline is, they're looking for a photographer. They do a search. You come up on Google. They look at your website, and then they'll go to your Instagram and check it out. It's rarely I'm searching on Instagram and I find you and I book you through that way. So if you don't have the bandwidth or the time, focus on blogging and SEO. If you do have the bandwidth at the time, like, a really solid Instagram feed has come cherry on top. It's really nice. But don't let it suck you dry, you know, to like, don't worry about it so much that you're just, like, completely burnt out and overwhelmed. You can let it go.

Pat Miller: 24:37

And that comes down to buying intent. When someone's inside a Google search, they're looking for a family photographer. When someone's on Instagram, they're looking for literally anything else but, and it's what they're doing when they consume your stuff. That makes a lot of sense. Alright, if someone wants to overhaul their marketing tactics, you mentioned SEO and how important it is, blogging as well. Is there anything else that comes to mind that we should be paying attention to if we're trying to make the shift?

Sandra Coan: 25:03

Yeah. If you really, really, really want to work on your marketing, also grow your email list. Email list? I know. Right? It's all this stuff. It's so old school, but it still works and it's still the way to go. Listen, you don't own Instagram. You don't own the algorithms. You don't own anything. And so the more people, the more of your clients you can get on a secure email list so you can send people out, the better. So, you know, start small. You don't have to have a huge list. Every single person you work with, just ask them, have a place in your contract or whatever and say, hey, would you like to be added to my list? This is what I use it for. I do this still, and when my clients don't say yes when they come in for their session, I'm like, hey, friend. I noticed that you didn't check the box to be on the list. Let me tell you why you want to be on it. Can I add you? And then they always say yes. But a good list is money in the bank. I have a pretty solid list. And so, for example, I do mini sessions once a year. I have holiday mini sessions, and we do two days of mini sessions, and we do about 30 a day. So it's like 60 over the weekend. And I send the sign up sheet for many sessions out to my newsletter first every year, and it always sells out. Last year, they all sold out within three hours.

Pat Miller: 26:22

Wow.

Sandra Coan: 26:23

Yeah. And that's all from that email list. It's gold.

Pat Miller: 26:26

How do you nurture them throughout the year? Are you sending a monthly newsletter, weekly newsletter? What do you do?

Sandra Coan: 26:31

I don't do anything.

Pat Miller: 26:32

Nothing? You just put them in the list? That's amazing.

Sandra Coan: 26:36

I know. But, you know, I let my people know that that's gonna happen. I'm like, listen. you wanna be on the list. This is why you wanna be on the list. When we have events like mini sessions, you're gonna know. If I'm having any kind of a print sale or whatever, you're gonna know. And then I tell them, I'm like, I'm not gonna bother you. I'm not gonna be sending you stuff in between. And that works for me. It doesn't work for every business. Sometimes you wanna nurture, especially if you're new to it. You know, I've been doing this for twenty six years, you know, but when I was starting out, I definitely would nurture my list a lot more.

Pat Miller: 27:06

Sure. We could go on and on about 32 different strategies for marketing for photographers. But is there anything else you wanna make sure that we get in today?

Sandra Coan: 27:13

Well, consistent portfolio. Alright. Let's circle back to that. You guys, that is so important. It's really easy when you start thinking of marketing to get caught up in the, you know, the SEO and social media and all that kind of stuff, but then you have to start with the work. The work part is just as important to your marketing strategy as the words part. And so what that looks like is that consistent portfolio. So if you don't know how to use strobes and flash yet, highly recommend you do that. I know it scares a lot of people. It is not scary. It's super easy. And the only reason that I push it so much is because it's gonna give you so much freedom and so much consistency. If you know how to work with natural light, great. You know how to do that. But if you ever find yourself in a situation where something's off or the natural light isn't good, you're still gonna be able to show up and create the kind of work your clients expect from you. So that's really important. The other thing about consistent lighting when it comes to portfolio curation and creating a really professional portfolio is it makes editing so much easier. When your light is good and your light is consistent, your editing is, like, no problem. And then that helps you create that real signature look that helps you, you know, set yourself apart from everybody else in your community. So focus on the work too.

Pat Miller: 28:28

Focus on the work. Nothing can go wrong if you're focusing on the work. A great conversation. Hopefully, one will get to continue sometime in the future. Sandra Coan, thanks for joining us.

Sandra Coan: 28:36

Hey. Thank you. What a great time.

Pat Miller: 28:38

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of The Professional Photographer Podcast. We are already cooking up another great show, so make sure you hit subscribe so we show up in your feed. The other thing that you could do that would really help a guy out, click like because the algorithm loves it, and leave us a comment. Because when you comment, we know what is registering for you. So do those things, and you'll be my favorite. All the other people, they're not my favorite. You're my favorite. One more thing, if you're not yet a member of Professional Photographers of America, you are missing the boat because they have these great member benefits, including equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in a profitable and sustainable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership at PPA.com. That's PPA.com. I'm Pat Miller, founder of the Small Business Owners Community and the publisher of the Small Business Summary newsletter. Check it out. We'll be right back here on the YouTube and your audio feed with more photography discussion on The Professional Photographers Podcast. See you next time.