Photography Business Growth Secrets Shawn Lee Uses to Thrive | Podcast Supershow

Pat Miller: 00:00

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. We're going back to Dallas, y'all. Imaging 2025 for the Podcast Super Show. Now if you didn't see the first part get released, that was PPA CEO David Trust. This is the second portion, and I'll give you a clue. Rock that. Oh, yeah. Shawn Lee's on the show today. We're gonna talk about how he enjoyed Imaging, what's going on in his world, and what we should be thinking about in 2025 to move our studios forward. Are you ready to rock that? Shawn Lee is standing by. He's on the show next. Here we go. Shawn Lee, welcome to the Podcast Super Show. How are you today?

Shawn Lee: 00:49

Rock that. Thank you for having me. I am doing great.

Pat Miller: 00:51

Excellent. I'm glad you're here. So if someone has not had the chance to meet you yet like I have, tell me about Shawn Lee. What do you do?

Shawn Lee: 01:00

I am a photographer. I'm a professional photographer. But what's the thing that maybe I would say about me? I absolutely love people. Right? And probably every other word that you will hear or term is "Rock that."

Pat Miller: 01:12

Yeah. Where did that come from?

Shawn Lee: 01:14

Wow, man. You are into long stories.

Pat Miller: 01:16

I love my long stories, come on. You and your color TVs.

Shawn Lee: 01:19

So, long story short, before I was a professional photographer, I actually used to work in a warehouse and drive a forklift truck. And I did say long story short. Right? So we're gonna keep this short and sweet. At Christmas time, we had to unload probably 30 to 50, 50-foot trailers in the wintertime, and we could not leave to go home until every trailer. So sometimes there were sixteen-hour days. Sometimes there were eighteen-hour days. We couldn't leave until every single trailer was unloaded. The warehouse was a mile long, and so if you could imagine, seven to eight guys on trucks constantly back and forth, a mile long warehouse going back and forth. We used to say, "Run that," to encourage each other. We would get tired. What it meant was is that the job, we couldn't stop until the job was finished. Later, in my life, as a kid, I would see rock bands. I would watch black and white TV. Maybe all these folk maybe grew up on color televisions. Black and white TVs, and I would see rock bands, man, and they would finish your set. They would smash the guitars on the stage, right? And they would jump in the mosh pit. And as a young black kid in the hood, I would think, why would you destroy a perfectly good brand new guitar? Right? But what I later understood that to mean was that for this show, we are going to put it all on the stage, all on the table. We're gonna break the guitars on the stage, and we're gonna jump in the mosh pit. And the next show, we're just gonna have to get new guitars. Right? And so, those two concepts for me became "Rock that." It was failure is just not an option, and we just don't stop until the job is done. We can't go home until the job is done. So if anybody ever comes to me and say, "Hey, I'm failing at this, or I wanna do this." My term to them is always "Rock that. Let's go. Let's get it. Don't tell me what I can't do. Tell me what I need to do to make it happen."

Pat Miller: 03:15

How does that show up for you? That's great. When you're shooting, when you're educating, when you're connecting with people, how does that show up, that drive to jump without a net, to make sure that you're leaving it all on the field? How does that materialize for you in a day to day?

Shawn Lee: 03:31

Oh, man. That's business. Right? That is absolute business. I grew up in Detroit. Right? And so we are the largest municipality to go bankrupt. Right? And so at a time when people didn't wanna spend money with you because it was people were penny pinching or whatever the case may be. Right? You transcend. You overcome. You innovate. And that's how that showed up for me. Right? When I started my business, a session here and a session there was not enough to take care of my household. So I had to start to innovate how and why. And what ended up happening was, as you know, I would see these photographers, they charge a ton of money. I was like, "Well, shoot. Give me a camera and charge a ton of money." Right? But it didn't work that way. It was like, well, why should we use you? And so, "Rock that" became sort of part of the ways that I developed my answer to that why you should use me. Right? And so innovating processes that actually served my client well became how I was able to charge the dollars that I was able to charge and answer the why you should pay me to do this work. Right? And so the enthusiasm is just naturally what shows up. It's how I've lived my life.

Pat Miller: 04:39

Yeah. It bleeds off of you. Every conversation I've had with you is just so That's nice. Enthusiastic.

Shawn Lee: 04:44

I wish this stomach would bleed off of me. Rock that..

Pat Miller: 04:51

I can relate with that. That's right.

Shawn Lee: 04:53

I say, "Rock that" to my stomach all the time.

Pat Miller: 04:55

Rock this. To be specific, this area right here. Alright. The big event for us, United Behind the Lens the other night.

Shawn Lee: 05:03

Oh, my god.

Pat Miller: 05:04

How was the event, and what was the reaction?

Shawn Lee: 05:06

Oh, my god. It was amazing. United Behind the Lens is a culmination of work that we've been doing for the last ten years here at the Professional Photographers of America. In our efforts, it is an effort to embrace inclusion and build community. It really is about all people. Anybody that is here, not just photographers of different nationalities, skin colors, cultures, but also ages. Right? Walks of life. We want everybody at the table, and we want everybody to understand that each individual person has great value. Doesn't mean that I have to agree with you. It doesn't mean that we came up in the same places. But what I acknowledge about you is that you are awesome. You are amazing. You have unbelievable great value because you exist on this Earth. And as a photographer or a professional at a base level, that's just how we should treat people. The second thing that we have in common is professional photography. Right? And there we go. And so I am excited about this work that PPA has wholeheartedly embraced. It is the spirit of Imaging USA, this conference that we come to every year. I am excited to see the growth, but I am making friends of every single walk of life. Right? And I say "Rock that" to that.

Pat Miller: 06:29

Rock that to that.

Shawn Lee: 06:30

Very cool.

Pat Miller: 06:31

Rock that to that. Yeah. The event was great. Folks signed the wall afterwards to commit that they were a part of this movement. The wall is full. You can't even get your name on there.

Shawn Lee: 06:40

That's people writing over other people's. It's folk getting mad because don't write over my stuff. The wall is full. That is absolutely, like, amazing. Matter of fact, I had to ask a question what we gonna do with the wall, but as a part of the event that we did on Sunday, and the room was packed. It was wall to wall, standing room only. And what we attempted to do on Sunday was shrink the lines that exist between people. And the way that you do that is you kinda force people to get out of their comfort zones and get to understand people. Once people understand, their fellow photographers, right? Folk that that they walk next to, sit next to in classes, what you'll understand is that the lines really they don't really exist. Right? When you find out that people love their families, right? People celebrate marriages in their family, births of children, everybody–maybe not everybody–but a lot of people have suffered loss. Right? And when you understand those things and the reasons why people do what they do, right? We get a little closer together. We tear barriers down, and then we can get real work done. Right? So, and we sign the wall together. Right? What a simple thing to do, but it just brings everybody together. Right? The way even colors. We had all these colored markers. Right? And some signatures are big, some are small, some people put their the Instagram handles on there. Right? Some people decided to write a quote, but it's all relevant to each individual story, all put together on a single wall that communicates the whole. And when you look at it, you might say, "Wow. That looks like a bunch of mishmash or colorful bunch of whatever that is." Right? Piece of paper a kid would draw on and all of that stuff, but it is the culmination of every single individual that is here.

Pat Miller: 08:37

When you say United Behind the Lens, people quickly understand people that don't look the same way, people that come from different areas, that is easy to understand. But one thing that I've noticed and I'd love your feedback on, there's another division inside the greater photography community. There are people walking around with decades of experience, wearing the bling, highly accomplished folks. There are people that are just coming in, and sometimes they're not mixing as much as they could. What do you think the more accomplished generation can learn from the new folks and vice-versa?

Shawn Lee: 09:06

Oh, I'm so glad you asked that question. Boy, if these ain't home runs, I should be in Major League Baseball right now if you were pitching every game. I think that in our industry, in society, as a whole, young folk tend to throw old folk away. Right? And old folk tend to young whippersnapper don't know nothing. Right? But I believe that we need everybody. There is for our seasoned photographers that have come through, they understand process well. They understand rules well, and there are certain concepts that need to be applied to photography. What I love about photography is that it is equally technical as it is creative. Right? And there is a value in understanding the science behind that. And that's what a lot of old school folk do. And then you got your new photographer who comes in the game and they are creative as all outdoors. And, you know, we live in a time where technology has surpassed a lot of the old school stuff. And your camera, we call it the evil green box, but your camera can be put on automatic and take some unbelievable photos, but it's not as smart as the photographer. I think that there needs to be some mentorship that happens, that closes that gap and that divide. I think it will only strengthen the industry. And so one concept that I have that I really wanna do is an event called Old School Versus New School. Think of this for example. I would love to have a model and then have the old school photographers with all of the bling and the gold and all of the clamps, photograph that model the way they would. Right? And then have new school come and photograph the model the way that they would. And then after, have a panel discussion about execution and the why. Right? I'm not trying to preach to anybody, but I'm an old school church boy, and there's a scripture that says that God called the young because they are strong. He called the old because they know the way. Right? And so I think as in any municipality, any organization, anything like that that you are part of, the strength of any organization is this innovative thinking. It's ability to think outside the box. It's youthfulness per se. Right? And I think that you also need those that have come before us to say, "Hey, I wouldn't do that if I were you. Been there. Done that. You might wanna make a left turn here." I think that we have to embrace each other. I think that we have to strengthen each other, and every person has value. If we use it, we strengthen our industry for the next generation to come along.

Pat Miller: 11:46

Yeah. Old School Versus New School. We gotta make that happen. That was great. We got time for one last question before we gotta go.

Shawn Lee: 11:53

Let's get it.

Pat Miller: 11:54

As someone that knows the way, I want you to think of something that you know now that you didn't know when you started, one piece of advice that you had to learn the hard way that you can share with someone that might point them in the right direction.

Shawn Lee: 12:07

One piece of advice. I will say this. When I first started, I didn't have a clue. I would hit the wall going 300 miles an hour. I would., and I started with–oh, my god. I think I bought lights off of eBay. I'm not even gonna say the name of them because I don't wanna get sued or nothing like that. And so if there was one piece of advice that I would give that I didn't know then that I know now, I would let me word it this way, because I think this is most important. When you talk about business, we learn as we go. And for people who are out there that you're learning as you go, there may be some frustration behind it. You may have hit the wall. You may have spent a bunch of money. I would say keep spending the money. My very simplest advice that I could give is don't stop. Right? Maybe I won't speak to what I didn't know, but I will speak to maybe the only thing that I did know. And that was just not to stop. Keep going. It is line upon line. It is little by little. It is tenacity. It is not stopping. It is learning from the mistakes. I remember when I started in business, I worked two warehouse jobs at the same time. I got laid off of both within four months. I bought a Canon because I'm a man and I like toys, and I just wanted to play. Right? I've been drawing since I was four. My mom was an artist, and so it was like a natural transition. But I had a job. I told you, I drove a forklift truck. Right? Two jobs. I worked the night shift and the morning shift. I was making great money. I got laid off of both within four months of each other. I took that camera. Watch this. And somebody asked me to shoot their wedding with my little kit lens. And my brand new well–it wasn't that brand new, but it was a digital–I'm gonna tell you what it was, a Canon Digital Rebel, six-megapixel, first generation digital cameras. And so I remember, I will shoot your wedding. They paid me $250. I was like, "You're gonna pay me $250 to shoot your wedding with a camera I already own? Heck, yeah. I will shoot. Yes, I will shoot your wedding. Yes, I will. You know somebody else got $200, I will shoot their wedding too. Right? So it's like when I first started. Watch this. I would photograph your grass, the cat, it didn't matter, the roof, whatever you ask me to photograph, I will photograph it. It didn't make a difference. I have my kit lens, my 18 to 55, variable 3.5 to 5.6 lens. And here's what happened. Somebody one day handed me an American Express card. What you want me to do with this? Right? This is before Square. This is before PayPal. This is for payment processors. Right? And so all of the money that I had to invest just to process the credit card, I didn't make any money. Right? It was a hard lesson to learn, but if I was going to do photography, I had to become a business person. Like I understood now that these are two separate skill sets, and I need to cultivate both of them. Right? And so but that was a hard lesson to learn, but what I would say to you is keep going. Don't stop. I remember one of my heroes is Terry White. If you came to United Behind the Lens, then you heard a little bit of the story, but one of my heroes is Terry White. I'm from Detroit. Terry White is from Detroit. He is Adobe Systems worldwide design and photography evangelist. And so I took my mortgage. Y'all wanna hear this. I took my mortgage payment, and I went to Photoshop World. I barely had enough money for a plane ticket. I barely had enough money to buy the Photoshop World ticket. I barely had enough money for the hotel, and I barely ate while I was there. Right? And so I went to Photoshop World because for me, it was I'm either going to do this for real or I'm not. And because I invested my mortgage money failure for me was not an option. Right? And so I say all of that because you look up here and here I am right now, but it took some, you have to keep going. Right? I don't care if you hit walls. I don't care if you come up on hard times. I don't care if you get frustrated. I don't care if you jack the shoot up because there's been some sessions that I done jacked all the way up. Black and white couldn't fix. Oh, my god. Right? But you keep going. I promise you. If you keep going, if you are for real about it and you keep going, you will see the North Side of great. I promise you that. Rock that. So that's the advice that I would give to anybody in business.

Pat Miller: 16:58

I love it. Thank you for your leadership on United Behind the Lens. Thank you for coming today. Shawn Lee, everybody, big round of applause. Let's go. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the Professional Photographer Podcast. I'm already looking forward to our next conversation. Now before you go, can you do me a favor? Drop us a like, hit subscribe, leave us a comment, let us know how we're doing. That will let us know what we should do more of in future episodes. It's really that simple. So leave us some feedback, and you will help the show get better. The other thing is if you're not a member of Professional Photographers of America, you're missing it. PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in a sustainable and profitable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership at ppa.com. That's ppa.com. I'm Pat Miller, Founder of the Small Business Owners Community. Thanks for joining with us on this journey. I'll see you right here real soon. Take care.