You're Not Going to Make it Unless You Adapt...Here's How with Liza Gershman

Pat Miller: 00:00

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. Think for a moment. What you're doing today, is it the exact same thing you'll be doing six months from now, twelve months from now, three years from now, twenty years from now? I think instinctively, we all know that's not the case. Our customers change. The way that we get our customers is going to change. Technology certainly changes. I mean, in this little recording, I've had three new AI models released, and that's just been, like, thirty seconds. We know times are changing, and our interests change, too. So how do we reframe what success looks like? How do we live with purpose and adapt as the marketplace changes? Well, today, we're gonna have that conversation. And this is a little bit, you know, up in the clouds a little bit. But I think every once in a while on this show, we have to have a conversation like that because whether we like it or not, tomorrow is not the same as today. So we're bringing on Liza Gershman. She has done basically everything. I mean, think of something in photography, she's done it. She's taught it. She shot it. She's done it. And on this show, she's gonna be really honest and tell us what we need to hear about reframing success and adapting with the times. This interview, you're going to love it. We'll be back with Liza in just one moment. Liza Gershman, welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast. How are you today?

Liza Gershman: 01:40

I'm great. I'm so thrilled to be here with you all. I've been a member for 20 years, and I was just recently a speaker at Imaging USA with VSCO, the photo app, and I'm really excited to jump into a conversation with you.

Pat Miller: 01:56

Now, in case someone missed you at imaging, that's their fault, and they don't already know of you, again, their fault, tell us who you are and what you do so we can get up to speed.

Liza Gershman: 02:06

Fantastic. I am a multidisciplinary creator, which means that photography is one of the things that I do. I'm also a writer and a creative director. So the way that I work is I tell stories, and photography is my first love, my first passion, and my first expressive medium. And in the storytelling, I am primarily focused in commercial photography, which includes lifestyle and portraiture and travel.

Pat Miller: 02:37

On today's show, we're gonna talk about reframing success and kinda changing the way that we think about a bunch of different stuff. And you've had success in your career. So why is adapting the way that we think about success necessary as we go forward?

Liza Gershman: 02:52

It's such a great question. I think, in order to have a lengthy career, like, I've had to be somebody who's worked in the creative arts for 20 years, I've done many things. So that's part of why I'm a multi-hyphenate. I have 19 published books. I was the Associate Chair of Photography for Savannah College of Art and Design. I was the in-house photographer for Williams Sonoma. I have freelanced for many different brands that you might know, like Restoration Hardware and Airbnb, Hyatt Hotels, Safeway, brands like that. And, also in my early career, I started off as a photojournalist and a writer. So something that allowed me to have a robust career was that I could do two things in terms of storytelling, but I wasn't even when I was doing exclusively photography; I was able to work in many different disciplines over the course of the last twenty years, and that has given me a lengthy career. And, it's kept me learning. It's kept me creating, and that's something I really encourage, especially to emerging photographers, is to try different things, to become a generalist who specializes. So in my early career, I was really focused on portraits and weddings. I worked for those kinds of studios, broke off into my own business, and worked for newspapers and magazines. Then I started getting book deals. And so as that transitioned, then I had other opportunities. I was a photographer for Amerisys Cup, for example, and I was Jerry Brown's campaign photographer when he was the governor of California. So being able to do a little bit of this and a little bit of that, but really focus on it for the time being, has helped elongate my career. Something that most people know about me is food photography, and that is something when I had been traveling a lot as a travel journalist and photographer and really needed to be stationed in the Bay Area for a while for some family help. And I thought, what do we do best here? Well, food and wine, and that's the Bay Area of California for anyone who's listening from somewhere else. And so I hyperfocused on food and wine and telling those stories. But included in a food and wine story, you have product, you have portraiture, you have landscape, you have architectural interiors, you have buildings. It's all under the umbrella of telling a food and wine story. And so when I look at something at a project, I really think of what is the narrative arc, even if it's a visual story without a writing component. And that has helped me get many jobs that I might not have gotten if I had been focused on just one specific thing like portrait only. It's opened up so many doors.

Pat Miller: 05:57

With all of that success and all of those neat things under your belt, did you ever start to think, hey, I'm kinda famous. People know who I am. Did that ever cross your mind?

Liza Gershman: 06:10

No. I think, as you and I have laughed about before, I don't really believe that fame is a thing. I think that we all live in bubbles, and some of us live in bubbles within bubbles, within bubbles, within bubbles. And the influencers and the influences that I'm aware of are coming to me every day in music, social media that I follow, etc. What you look at is very different. I was recently–I'd love to tell the story about how different the exposure we have to things really is. I was standing next to somebody looking at Instagram. I was standing next to a man looking at Instagram, and I looked over, and I knew him a little bit. And I said, oh, what are you looking at? It was all beautiful women in bathing suits. And I said, what you know, is that a dating app? What are what are you looking at? And he said, "No, it's Instagram." And I had this moment of, oh, I didn't realize Instagram was different things for different people because my Instagram is so highly curated to luxury travel, jewelry, beautiful table decor, pretty fabrics. Like, my Instagram does not look anything like that, and it didn't occur to me that, naturally, we all have this algorithm that's feeding our specific taste. And so that man is never going to know about me in his sphere, really realistically, and I'm never going to know about the influences in his life, in my sphere, realistically, unless it's on a massive platform like the Kardashians. And I don't know that those platforms really exist unless you're at millions of followers. And then it becomes an international, you know, that's very, very few people are in this, like, international fame where everyone on the planet that has a TV or a phone knows who they are. So I don't generally think the idea of fame is real. I had students when I was a professor, and I would say, what do you want to be? And they would say, I want to be a famous photographer. And I would say, well, let's unpack that because I don't know that's a thing. You know? In the 90's and in the early 2000's, pre-90's, that really was the way of the world. There were very few people who were image makers on a professional level. The equipment was cost-prohibitive. The facilities you needed would have been cost-prohibitive. It was very specialized, very technical, and the access to that was limited unless that was really a deep passion of yours or became your profession. And then the exposure, we only had 20, let's say, magazines. You know? And so if you were in that publication regularly, if you were a regular photographer for Vanity Fair like Annie Leibovitz and Rolling Stone, everyone that was reading a magazine knew who you were. We don't have that anymore. We have hypersaturation with Instagram, TikTok. I don't know all the other things, Snap-blah-blah, Facebook. I don't even know what they all are. So, you know, there's not really a thing about it. Like, you can't be a famous photographer. You can be well-known in your bubble. And my best advice to people is, what does fame get you anyway, you know, truly? And being well-regarded for what you do by your peers, I think, is that's something to strive for. That's something that's there's a lot of satisfaction in having contemporaries appreciate what I do or, having someone ask to learn something from me, that's the most meaningful thing for me. If I have former students who reach out whenever they have a job come up and say, "What do you think about this? What do you think about that client? I've redone my portfolio. Would you take a look?" That to me is the most fulfilling thing, to have the honor of being trusted by someone, and that's what I think we should all strive for, not how many strangers in Tibet have clicked on my Instagram. You know? I don't know where the meaning is in that.

Pat Miller: 10:28

Yeah. I laughed at Snap-blah-blah because that sounded like that could be one of these platforms. That just might be where it's at. So I might not look it, but I remember the 80's and 90's as well. And I know what you're saying. We live in 300,000,000 different realities in the same country right now because of the algorithms. So if we can't gauge success based on being well-known by everyone, we can gauge success by having our work being good enough that people respect it. So how do we get better? How do we stay vigilant to be critical of what we do in a daily practice?

Liza Gershman: 11:05

Such a great question. How do we get better, and how do we stay vigilant? There are a number of ways. What I found to be the most effective in my career and, audience, I promise this is not a plug for PPA, although it should be, really was my early relationship with my local chapter of PPA. Because of that relationship, because I was a participant, and because I was open to learning and improving, I was able to attend regular meetings and get honest feedback about my work and about my career goals. And that honest feedback was from peers, but most importantly, it was from mentors. And what I like most about the structure of a local chapter of PPA is that the people who are running image comps–so for anyone that doesn't know what that is, you submit an image, and there's a metric scale–and your image is judged. And then the judges, in front of everyone, evaluate the image and explain why they selected this, or maybe it got 87 points instead of 89 or 93, and here's why and here's how you could have done things differently to improve your score and improve the quality of the image. And even when I was going through this process, and I was an emerging photographer and was fairly intimidated to submit my own images, which is funny because I'm not scared of much, but I really was. And so I would sit there, and I would watch other people's images being critiqued. And the amount that I learned while observing critique is more than I learned in photo school, which I went to. So that's another thing you can do. You can go to photography school. I was a professor at one of the best art schools in America with one of the best photo programs. So if you really want to endeavor to become a better photographer, there are so many things that you can do. One, constantly creating work. So it's just like anything else. If you wanna be a better tennis player, if you're not on the court every day, you won't improve. Two, evaluate yourself with a realistic eye. And if you don't know how to do that, which I think it takes training as a professional or as an artist to be able to see your own work from a different perspective, almost as though you have to divorce yourself from your own work. You have to be able to see your work as though someone else has created it so that you can be critical. And I think we now use this word critical or critique in a negative connotation. It's not. It's actually an evaluation with a thoughtful eye looking for improvement, truly. And so, one, constantly be shooting. Two, get your technical skills up. Do that by taking courses, workshops, online seminars. Go to photography school. Take take workshops at PPA, go to conferences, meet other industry professionals, use the best gear, go and find what's good right now. I mean, the best gear is the camera you have in your hand, but if you don't know how to use it–if you're using a professional photographer and you're shooting on all manual, then you need to know how to do that. If you're shooting on all automatic, you're definitely not getting the results that you're hoping for because the camera is making the decisions for you. And it's just like saying a race car driver driving an automatic car. That person can't control the curves, you know. And so learn the skills, get critical feedback from not just your peers, and I've said this before every time I speak about photography. It's wonderful when my mother or my friends love my photo. That makes my heart warm. It doesn't help me become a better photographer. What helps me become a better photographer is when another skilled photographer whose skill is the same or better than mine gives me authentic feedback about my work and make suggestions for improvement. That's how I develop and I improve. When you get to a certain point in your career, now I don't always need the feedback because I can divorce myself from my work, and I can look at my image versus another and say, does it cut the mustard? You know, people often say to me like, "Oh, I really want to be a travel photographer." And I'm like, "That's so great. Have you purchased every travel magazine that is out there to see what are the pros who are getting paid to photograph in this space doing it? And does your work compare to that? You know, is it comparable or better?" So, I think really being able to take an honest look at your work is the first step to becoming, you know, a better photographer. And then all these other ways, use the resource. I cannot say this enough. PPA is your best resource, and it's your best resource because you'll meet peers, you can take workshops, you can learn online, you get exposed to tools, you can go to conferences, and these are all of the ways in which somebody becomes a better photographer. It's not just by, like, hopes and dreams and wishing, you know, which, like, it's putting in the real work like any other professional career, and I think to be at the top of your game and get consistent work or get big contracts as a professional photographer is akin to becoming, one, a player in the NFL, but, two, in the Super Bowl. So it's the same. If you think of how much work and training a professional athlete is doing, and I'm not a big sports fan, but I appreciate anyone who's at the top of their game. And I think that's one of the easiest reference points that we have in America because everyone understands what professional football is. We kind of get the gist of how much practice do they put in, what's the training, you know, schedule, what resources do they need. If you think of your photography career in a way that is like that, you will succeed. I have no doubt. If you think of it as a hobby or something that you're putting in, you know, on a scale of one to 100 being you're putting in more than 10,000 hours, which as we know, is the metric for being a success in anything is 10,000hours of practice. So if you're endeavoring to get in that 10,000 hours of practice but have it be with critical feedback and good resources and constant learning, you will get there. You'll get to wherever it is you would like to go. If you are not putting in that 10,000 hours and you're looking at this as your business, but it's really your hobby, and your accountant can probably talk to you about that. But if you're looking at it as your hobby, then you won't get there, and you'll be disappointed. So, yeah, it's be professional in your profession.

Pat Miller: 18:06

You've said something that I think is pretty provocative, that elite level photography isn't something to guess about. It's something that you know. And if you're not 100% sure that you're as good as the other guy–

Liza Gershman: 18:18

Yeah.

Pat Miller: 18:18

–that means that you're not there yet. Is that true?

Liza Gershman: 18:22

I believe so. I think I had a massive turning point in my photographic life. I'd always dreamed of being a travel photographer. Travel is by far my biggest passion. And after I went to graduate school for English and American literature, and I went to photo school, and after graduate school, I had an opportunity to travel for a year and be in some pretty spectacular places. This was back in the film days. And somebody convinced me that my best plan of action for my trip was to bring slide film, color slide film. For those of you who might not be familiar with the nuances of color slide film, it is the least forgiving medium of all because what you get in the frame is what you get. You're not going to a darkroom. You're not judging. You're not burning. You're not changing it. This was before scanners. This was before Photoshop. You weren't running it into a system and then altering it. It was literally what you get is what you get. And there was not a back of a camera that display to show you. It was just your skill and your knowledge in guessing, frankly. You know? And it was a mystery, and then you take it home and you develop it and see what happened. And sometimes you go through the scanner at the airport, and it would get ruined, or you'd, like, lose it, or back of the camera would jar open. And so it was a real mystery. Anyways, so I was on this trip. I spent a year traveling and photographed with color film, and got back, and my slides were horrible. They were terrible. I cried myself to sleep, no doubt, and put down. I was so defeated that I thought, that's it. Like, I'm not really a photographer. This will never happen. And I'd spent years gazing over images of travel and leisure and National Geographic and, you know, the Abercrombie and Kent catalog for Safari, and just daydreaming. And here, I just had spent this year in remarkable places, and my images were terrible. I was devastated, and I thought, okay. This isn't for me. Obviously, I need to be focused on something else, and I didn't have a support system in my life that was encouraging of this career. You know? It's a total risk. It's sort of crazy to do this. You really have to want this more than you want anything else. I like to say, if there is some other thing that you think you might want, go do that because this is not a guarantee. And this can be your hobby for your whole life, and it is such a beautiful hobby. But if you want this to be where you're making your money and the foundation for how you feed yourself and maybe loved ones, you have to want this more than you want anything else in your life because it is not easy at all. And there are moments, for every yes I get, there are a thousand nos. And I've had this huge career. You know? I'm twenty years in. And so after the big defeat, I had to be really honest with myself, and I had to look at my work and decide, okay. It doesn't look like the images that I can see in these magazines. My composition's great. I grew up with a mother who's an artist, and she took me to museums my whole life. I studied painting. I studied, you know, I knew art theory. I understood the creative aspect of it. I didn't know the technical aspect. And so I had to make a decision about whether or not–and at that time, there were definitely not online resources, and so this is 2003. So I had to make a decision about whether or not this was something I could live without. And, you know, could I be okay being, like, an okay hobbyist, or did I really want my images to look like what I could see in a magazine? And I couldn't handle emotionally not having them look like what I saw in a magazine. It was eating me apart. And so I knew, okay. I have one choice, and that is to go all in and to go learn and to go to photo school because that was really the only way to learn at that point in time. And so I did. I made this giant leap, one of the biggest leaps of my entire life. I went to Rocky Mountain School of Photography in Missoula, Montana, which was a dream. It was like photo camp for adults. I mean, I don't know how to describe it other than that. I learned an incredible amount. I was surrounded by others who were just as crazy as I was, just as excited about this thing that has no guarantees, and spent five months learning the craft. And that was a huge turning point in my photographic experience and in my imagery. And even now when I look back on the image, I thought, oh, they're pretty good. When I look back at the things that I created in photo school or right after, they were okay. You know? They were not amazing, but they weren't terrible like my photographs had been before I went to photo school. So it helped me jump, do a big jump, and having the ability to really have a critical eye. And I had to wait an actual year to get to a place where I could be honest about my photographs and not just sad about them, where I could say, okay. That's not good enough for me. What I'm going to do is change that, and here's how. And after I left photo school, I came home. And, serendipitously, that week of being home, I was walking by a photo studio, and I saw a sign in the window, and it said help needed. And I was like, look at that. So I went in. So a lot of my career is being in the right place at the right time, and it's being ready for the right place and the right time. So I walked by a studio. They were looking for someone to help. I went in. I spoke with the women who own the studio, and she did cycle of life photography–weddings, babies, engagements. She's very artistic, and her studio was this, like, wonderful chaos of, like, feathers and things everywhere and, you know, magical dollhouse kind of stuff. Her husband also had a photo studio. They could not work in the same space. He had been an engineer, and his was meticulously tidy. Like, everything was spotless in order where it needed to be. It turns out that they both needed help, and he did high school dances, senior portraits, business portraits, and a little bit of product. And so I wound up immediately working for both of them, and learning a tremendous amount from each of them. And I really learned a lot about the business aspect from Jason. And from Celeste, I learned about the creative aspect, and that was instrumental in my career. I couldn't be where I am if I had not had those two experiences. Jason and Celeste, they were both incredibly involved in the local chapter of PPA, and they wanted me to come. And I was, like, nervous and reluctant to go, and I went. And I recognized everybody there was older than I was by a lot, but seasoned. They all had about thirty years of experience and professional photographers, and they were willing to mentor me in every way. Two of my other friends, Karna Roa, who's very involved in PPA, and Norah Burrows, we were the same age, and we each serendipitously worked for one of three different photographers who are really involved in PPA. We learned very different things, but each of us still now twenty years later, each of us, we have a very successful career. And, you know, it's because we spent so much time learning from people who gave us honest feedback, allowed us to make mistakes and try things, gave us an opportunity to have a critical eye towards our work without judgment or shame. I think that's probably the most important thing is to find people that will give you feedback where the feedback doesn't feel like you're being shamed because that's not a way to grow an artistic career. You know? We're all sensitive. We're artists. So having peers who are more advanced than you, having feedback, that really shaped my career, and then it took off in different ways from there.

Pat Miller: 27:20

We talked about reframing personal excellence and fame and success for ourselves. Let's now shift the focus to reframing the scope of a photography business, about thinking about how we take our excellence and then put it into a business product. So we're reframing the scope of the photography business. Where would you like to begin?

Liza Gershman: 27:44

Oh, my goodness. Where do we begin? Reframing the scope of a photography business, and how do we put that into a career? Looking at the market is so important. Building your network is essential. I have jobs that come to me now from people I met ten years ago, fifteen years ago. You just never know where something will drop in and/or how it will drop in. You know, ten years ago, I spoke at another photo conference and sort of thought, okay. That was my one time. Who knows if I'll ever do it again? You just don't know. And then I had this gigantic honor to speak at Imaging USA in Dallas this year, and that was, for me, incredibly meaningful. What I loved about it also was that I had so much more work to be able to think about and so many more experiences to be able to reflect on. And so when you're building or reshaping your career, if you think about it as today, I don't think it's very helpful. If you are thinking about, okay, I'm in this for a lifetime, and there will be ebbs and flows. Some years, you know, photography is feast or famine. Some years, you might need to have another job to support yourself. Some years, photography is the job that supports everything. So in that, think about okay, if on the years that are famine–and I don't know that people are very publicly open about this. I think a lot of photographers, unfortunately, lead people to believe that you can have 20 years of feast, and I don't think that exists. I don't know anyone that has had that. And when I was a professor, my most popular class was my business class. And every class, I had a photographer zoom in or fly in to talk to my students about the reality of their career. And I think in part, it was to prove to myself that I wasn't the only person who had, you know, gone and done something else. But what it is, do something else that you can live with and do something else that keeps you engaged in your photo career. So, for example, I'm always recommending new people learn how to become a digital tech. So if you're on a commercial set, everyone has their own job in their own lane. There's a photographer, there's an art director, there's a stylist, there's a digital tech, there's a creative director. These are all things that you can do while you're still engaged in the photo world. And maybe you have a small client here or there, but you could be doing that as your steady career in the downtime where photography is not your steady career. And, definitely in the transition, you have to stay current on technology and trends, and you have to adapt in order to survive. And if you're not interested in doing that, that's okay. This just isn't your full-time career. This is your hobby, and there's nothing wrong with that. You know? Being a hobbyist is beautiful. Being real with yourself is what's important.

Pat Miller: 31:03

Let's dig in on that technology and the impact it's having on the industry. What are some of the big ways that it's forced photographers to change the business?

Liza Gershman: 31:12

Well, I started in the film days, and I had a darkroom. And when I started working in those two photo studios, it was kind of hybrid. They were still doing some film and some digital. This was 2005-2006. And during that time, several of the photographers that I had grown to know closed their businesses because they didn't want to give up film and they wanted to stay full film, no digital. So that was a choice. They had to make the choice of, you know, leaving a 30-year career behind because they weren't interested in changing and adapting. I'm not all that interested in social media or, I don't know. I don't wanna become an AI image creator. I like being a photography creator. So I'm not sure what will happen in the future. But if I want to stay in this industry, I will have to get on board with becoming potentially an AI image creator. And what does that look like? So it's how much do I want to be in the conversation still? How exciting is it to me to learn new things? And, you know, that's something I really recommend to everyone is, one, again, I can't say this enough, being really honest with yourself, being transparent with your own self about what interests you and what you like. And if this is your career, if this is how you want to make money, then you have to follow the technology and the trends, stay on top of the curve. If this is your passion and your hobby that you sometimes make money at, you don't have to do that, and that's fabulous. So it just depends on, you know, realistically, what are you willing to do? How much work are you willing to put in to learn new things and try new things? And that can be scary. I think the industry right now, no one knows what is next, and this is the first time in a really long time that we just don't know. Digital, it was a nice progression from film, so we could kind of anticipate what a digital industry might look like. This is the Wild West. Like, we have no idea. Am I going to be commanding to a room what I want the image to look like, and then some kind of sensor creates like, I don't know. Am I going to touch my eye, and these, you know, glasses will suddenly take the image to the same quality my camera will? I don't know. We don't know. So, you know, continuing to learn. I went to an AI conference in San Francisco earlier this year, and I went purely out of curiosity because I wanted to learn and see if anyone had insight in how the art world would be impacted. I was literally the only non-AI person there, you know, out of the whole–everyone I spoke to said, "Why are you here?" And I said, "I need to keep evolving, and this is the moment. So I better get on board." You know? So I think those are the important things about how you maintain a career and you evolve it, and why leaning into technology is so important if that's what you want as a career.

Pat Miller: 34:23

And that's the point. If this is what you want, if you want your career to be a business, you need to make those choices. Because if photography is a hobby, that's great. But the danger is people that treat their business like a hobby.

Liza Gershman: 34:38

Yeah.

Pat Miller: 34:39

So what ultimately do you find helps these people who are ready to make the switch from pretty pictures to profit? Like, how are they moving? What is ultimately forcing them to move from pretty pictures to profit if that's where they wanna go?

Liza Gershman: 34:57

One, it has to be the absolute pure desire to do this more than you wanna do anything else. Like, anything. There cannot be another thing that even comes close to your desire to do this because this is really hard and really competitive, and it is not getting less competitive because everyone that has a phone has a camera, and the camera phone is becoming pretty good. So this has to become the thing that gets you up in the morning, you know, and that you're thinking about when you're going to bed at night. At least I don't know another way about it. I do also think you've got to be, you know, staying on trends, constantly learning, and taking more classes. I still have a lot to learn. I've taught photography at the college level, and I feel like I can still learn. So is that, like, you know, being humble? No. But I think that's being realistic. Right? And to recognize, to find a network of peers that know more than you about different things so that you're learning from each other and it becomes fun, to get involved in organizations like PPA, which I, hands down, is the most important photographic organization in America in order to have resources, continue learning, see interesting speakers, go to conferences, find out the latest thing about gear, have business tools like insurance. I mean, I know I sound like an ad, but I really could be. I couldn't do my career without PPA. So those are the ways. And then also in the commercial world and even as a photographer, I mean, as a wedding photographer, I always say assist somebody. The best way to learn is on the job. So when you're starting out, find someone you can go work for two years, you know, and learn everything you can about their business practices. Learn everything you can about their photographic skills. We all photograph things in different ways. You know? There are many ways to skin the same potato. I don't know what I'm saying. So those are the ways, and take classes. You can take classes on YouTube now. I offer a mini course. I offer a retreat. For anyone that wants to know, that's on LGCA Digital. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that, but–

Pat Miller: 37:37

Absolutely.

Liza Gershman: 37:37

–okay, great. But, you know, learn from me. Learn from Lindsay Adler. Go learn about lighting from somebody else. Go learn about portraiture and headshots from somebody else. The other thing is all of the photography that I do informs the other photography that I do. So being a photojournalist and a wedding photographer, I learned how to photograph on my feet, how to change something immediately, how to look for the light, how to anticipate unexpected moments, and that helped me to be a better food photographer. Being a portrait photographer helped me to be a better food photographer because I look at food almost like the way I would light a face. So, I think every kind of discipline informs the rest of it, and being really well rounded in your knowledge helps you to be a strong photographer.

Pat Miller: 38:30

If you have a strong point of view and you make the decision, I'm gonna make a business out of it, sometimes, your creative vision doesn't match what people wanna buy. How can we do both of those things at the same time–have a strong creative vision and find things that people wanna buy?

Liza Gershman: 38:47

That's such a great question. How do you find things that people want to buy? So what I think about is I create a dream client list of five, and I create a brand new portfolio for that client list. And when I get one of those, then I work on that for a while, and then I can move it to the side and add another one. So, for example, when I knew that my dream was to work at Williams Sonoma, I did not have a food portfolio at all. And because I'm in wine country, I happen to know some chefs, and I convinced people to help. And they generously did, and so I spent a month creating an entirely new portfolio of food imagery, and I submitted that and then got the job. But that's what I did to get that job. Anytime I do a book, again,you know, I have 19 published books, and every book I learned something new. It's not as though I think I know everything. Every time I learned something then I can apply it in the next book, whether it was something I could have done better or just an idea that worked well. I carry it over into my next book. So, it's the same with creating a portfolio to appeal to brands. You think about, okay, I really want to photograph for Hinckley Yachts. But if all you have in your portfolio is butterflies, Hinckley Yachts won't really see how to hire you. Art directors in particular, they only hire for exactly what they see. So, they're looking for, you know, the person in the blue shirt on the kayak. They're not looking for the Polo pony if they're doing an ad of a person in a blue shirt on a kayak. So get to know your audience, get to know the brands that you specifically are really interested in working with or the clients, and create a portfolio that is very fine tuned to their aesthetic, and then submit it and be persistent. Like, a no is a maybe. You know? A no is just a not right now. And you never know when somebody will circle back with you years later, or months later, or days later and say, "Hey, that person that we thought was going to work out, they broke a leg in the Catskills and can't come to the set. Or, you know, we did a shoot. We were trying to save money." This happens all the time. I love this one. "We were trying to save money, and our blah, blah, blah, employee's spouse is a photographer, so we had them do the shoot." I'm like, hobby? Okay. Cool. And then I'm glad that [inaudible 37:55]. "So now it didn't work, and we're reaching out to you because we have to do it again." Oh, so you doubled the amount of money that you had to spend. Okay. I'm here and available though. I am happy to help you rectify that situation. You know? So you just don't know. It's like a no is a maybe. And part of how you can transition from being the hobbyist that you are to the pro that you want is to really nurture and maintain your network. And a network, it's not immediate. I don't think that many jobs happen overnight or necessarily, like, in the same week or month, even year sometimes. I really do think if you're thinking about this as your career, this is a long game. A career is a lifetime. So I still touch base with people that I met 15 years ago because at some point, we might do a project together. You know, I still send follow-up notes or thank-you notes or I think through what is meaningful to this connection, and how can I help them more importantly? I'm definitely known as a super connector. So, Pat, if you said I need a, I would immediately–my brain would go–I would figure out something and then something, oh, underwater basket weaver. I met one of those when I was photographing something in Brazil. I'll connect you. You know? That's how my brain works, and I'm not doing that for me. I'm doing that just because that is the way to be. And somebody will ultimately do that back, you know. So I think being really generous with your knowledge is one additional way to become the photographer that you want to be is to help people. And, also, I've never learned more about what I don't know than when I had to teach because then you're like, oh, how do I do that? What is the ratio? Gosh, I should learn that again. You know? Brush up your skills. So if you have an opportunity to mentor or teach, you will really also enhance your skills.

Pat Miller: 43:39

We've talked about what it takes to be excellent. We've talked about how do we make a business out of that. We talked about hobbyist versus professional. You shared all of the different things that you've done, which is an incredible list. With all of that behind us, how do you define success for you? What does that look like for you right now?

Liza Gershman: 43:59

Oh, gosh. Okay, that is a great question. I mean, it is constantly evolving just like I hope for everyone else that will evolve. For me, success is if I have an idea of a project that I would like to do, success is having people say yes to it. That's what success is. And, also, the gratitude that I have for my experience at Imaging USA, I've had 20 notes to thank me for my presentation. I've had personal mail. I don't know when the last time I got a piece of mail that was [inaudible 40:38]. Like, I actually got real letters thanking me. That to me is the mark of I've done something right or well or, you know? And so, that is probably by far the most meaningful thing. And when I have a former student reach out and say, 'I'm thinking of this job, or would you look at my portfolio?" To me, that also defines success. You know? Those are things that I can't monetize or buy,or they just don't come out of nowhere. They come because I've put my heart and soul and time into this, and I've also given back everything. Because when I see somebody who's really interested in, has that spark of the same passion that I had, I remember how many people tried to talk me out of it. I know how many people still try to talk me out of it. You know? And I don't think that ever ends. Like, no one is an artist without a million people telling you're going to fail. And whether that's out of disbelief or jealousy, or they couldn't do it or whatever it is, you have to be the loudest voice in your head. You have to be the voice that does not quit on you. You have to be your biggest cheerleader. When I write articles and they're on a format like a newspaper, you know, there are million looky-loos who are going to say whatever they want. If you read the worst comment and take it personally, you also take the best comment personally. And I don't really wanna take the worst comment personally, so I can't really take the best comment personally. You know? I have to have, like, an egalitarian viewpoint with myself about this. So, I have to know in me what of my work is quality, what of my work needs improvement, and that's really the honesty one has with oneself that will push you forward.

Pat Miller: 46:34

Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing all these insights and for keeping it real. Liza Gershman, thanks for coming on The Professional Photographer Podcast. I appreciate it.

Liza Gershman: 46:42

Thanks so much for having me. And one last one last plug, if anybody would like to participate in my next project, I am doing it's a cookbook of American recipes in timing for America's 250th anniversary, which is July 4th, 2026. And I have a national recipe contest for the book. You can enter to win a place in a book to have your name and, potentially, your photo in a recipe book. It's going to be widespread. So that is america250cookbook.com. So I'd love to have you all participate. And thank you so much, for PPA, for everything and, Pat, for you, this is, like, really an honor to be invited. And I'm still looking forward to seeing where everybody gets to collaborate again. So thank you. It's really meaningful to be here.

Pat Miller: 47:38

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of The Professional Photographer Podcast. I really appreciate you clicking play, and I doubly, triply, extra appreciate you with an ice cream cone on top if you click the little like button and subscribe, and bonus triple, quadruple bonus points if you leave us a comment. Because that way, Liza and I will know what about today's episode really resonated with you. So, let us know, and that will help us build better episodes in the future. You heard Liza do all of the heavy lifting for us in this episode, but I will add, if you're not yet a member of Professional Photographers of America, you are missing the boat. PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in a sustainable and profitable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership at PPA.com. I'm Pat Miller, Founder of the Small Business Owners Community. Thanks for joining me on this journey and taking a look at the show. I appreciate it. We'll be right here next time to help you build a better business with The Professional Photographer Podcast.