Portrait Photography That Hits You in the Feels with Anj Olson

Pat Miller: 00:00

I'm Pat Miller and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. Welcome to the Professional Photographer Podcast. I'm Pat Miller, host of the show, and we are live at Imaging USA 2025 in Dallas. Our setup today is presented by Sony, and I'm going to tell you about the gear here in just a second, but you've logged into the Creative Play series and Anj Olson is standing by. Now, today's set is sponsored by Sony, the Sony Cinema line. Cameras are all around me, like all around me, and everything's being controlled on Sony's monitor and control app. So they've got one iPad, and they're pushing the buttons and making it look great. So a big thanks to Sony for doing all the hard work today. Now let's talk about Anj Olson and what we're going to have on today's show. If you think Creative Play is only to learn how to use lenses and cameras better, it's more than just that because our guest Anj Olson uses Creative Play very therapeutically. She goes into the studio and purposely grabs images, self portraits of herself that helps her work out how she's really feeling and how she's really perceiving her day-to-day life. Her story is fantastic. How it came about. She's got a very clear prescription on Creative Play and how you should go about it as well. I think you're going to enjoy today's conversation. It's really refreshing. So let's bring her in now. Anj Olson, welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast. How are you?

Anj Olson: 01:29

Thank you so much. I'm wonderful. I've had four shots of espresso already. Very energized.

Pat Miller: 01:35

Already? Wow.

Anj Olson: 01:36

So we'll see what happens today.

Pat Miller: 01:37

How does four shots match up with the daily load in the usual?

Anj Olson: 01:40

Halfway there. Second round will be coming.

Pat Miller: 01:44

That's–

Anj Olson: 01:46

Aggressive.

Pat Miller: 01:47

That's high octane. That's quite a bit.

Anj Olson: 01:48

This is why you're getting this. The energy, all due to that.

Pat Miller: 01:52

Yeah. If someone hasn't met your high octane-ness before, tell everyone what you do and the style of photography that you do.

Anj Olson: 02:00

Okay. I am, one, from Ankeny, Iowa. I specialize in portrait photography, printed art. I love, love, love framed art. We love installing in people's homes. I'm a relationship girl, so volume photography doesn't work for me. I want to be able to be with my clients from the very beginning to the end of the process, and then I would like to be best friends with them. That is my energy.

Pat Miller: 02:26

Yeah. It doesn't end when you put something on the wall.

Anj Olson: 02:28

Nope. And maybe sometimes it's not mutual, but it is. Yes, that is my studio. We recently did a remodel and attached it to our home because along with being more of a boutique photographer, I love my space. I love to be in my home. I'm a little bit of an introvert, so it all adds in to the creative energy that my clients receive.

Pat Miller: 02:53

Do you have to separate home and studio when it's attached to the house. How do you keep the barrier between the two?

Anj Olson: 02:59

There's 100% a door that locks. I have three boys, 10, 8, and 6, and they would probably live in the studio with me at all times. So we made sure to have a locked door. We made sure that I have coffee in there. And there's both an outdoor and indoor entrance, so if needed, I can escape.

Pat Miller: 03:20

Yes. Lock them in, and you can go run free.

Anj Olson: 03:24

Exactly, yes. Just to be clear, I love my children.

Pat Miller: 03:25

Oh, yeah, they're great. They're great behind the locked door.

Anj Olson: 03:27

Yes. As long as they're on the other side of the door.

Pat Miller: 03:29

Yeah. We get to talk about creative play today, and your artwork is so ornate, and you do such beautiful work–

Anj Olson: 03:36

Thank you

Pat Miller: 03:37

–that doesn't happen on accident. So talk to us about creative play and how you embrace it with your work.

Anj Olson: 03:41

Okay, so, one, I think creative play is something that you have to really be intentional about. I think when you get into your job being photography or being a creative job, you forget that play is important for growth. It's important for exploring parts of yourself creatively that maybe you wouldn't explore without pushing yourself further. The intentional part is really important to me. I am a perfectionist. I like things in a box. I like them–and that's odd from a creative person–but I like to follow rules. And so creative play was a rule I could follow that made me not follow the rules. So if I tell myself, no, you are playing, it's like the world opens up, and you get to do whatever you want within that space. It also lets me end that space and put myself in a comfortable space again. So I need both of those. It's scaffolding. It allows me to play and then exit that and enter into something else.

Pat Miller: 04:49

Yeah. Creative play happened with some intention for you. Tell us the story about how you got into the habit of creative play.

Anj Olson: 04:56

Yeah. So one of the things that got me into creative play was exploring emotion, being in a space of getting into untapped emotion that maybe you can't access when you are simply existing. So it was something that I had to give myself to really delve a little deeper. You know when you're looking at your artwork and your branding and all that, you tend to stick to a certain mood? Or I need to make sure that I'm showing images that are like this or showing images that are like that, and maybe that doesn't explore different emotions that exist within you. So I had to be intentional about saying, okay, you are feeling this emotion. You do not know how to put that into words. Now, what can you do photographically that maybe will help you pull out some of those emotions? And maybe that's not your normal, but just because it's not your normal doesn't mean it doesn't exist within you. It is still a beautiful and valid part of you. And specifically for me, that was like a darker emotion. You can't have light without shadow. And so my work, if you look at my work, it's very joyful. It's very bright and vibrant and colorful. I love color harmony. But if you look at my self portraiture, which is the area in which I really delve into creative play, and it is dark, it's a little more of the emotions that I might feel uncomfortable going further into, but I feel comfortable reaching out to those emotions or tethering to those emotions within creative play. And the other thing I think is that play is often associated with joy. And just because your emotions may not be joyful, that doesn't make the creative play not joyful. So that's kind of how I got into that specifically, and if it's okay for me to talk about something personal–

Pat Miller: 07:01

Absolutely.

Anj Olson: 07:03

When I had my third child, it was. It was a traumatic experience. It was something that ended up with me staying in the hospital longer with blood transfusions, my son being in the hospital, and as you can imagine, there was a lot of untapped emotion that existed within that. I was simply thankful to be alive and well and here for my family and children, but I did not take the time to explore anything else that existed within that realm. Creative play gave me that outlet. It was my first venture into I am feeling things that I don't know how to explore. I do not know how to put into words. Nobody can understand that, but here is a space where I can truly explore how to handle these emotions. So that was definitely the first time I went deep into emotional creative play.

Pat Miller: 08:03

Did you realize you were doing it?

Anj Olson: 08:05

I don't think I did in the beginning. I think as I went further and further, I started to realize what was happening. COVID happened a year after my son was born. And I think that was when I realized, oh, my gosh, I'm having these emotions again. You know, I'm having this trapped feeling. I'm having all of that. And it started to play out in creative shoots. So there was an Alice in Wonderland shoot that was a series of me being trapped in a jar and then being large. What was interesting is the emotion, as I said before, that existed within that could potentially be seen as negative emotion–feeling trapped, feeling sad, just all of that. But when I looked at those images and when I actually actively went through that creative process, it felt as though a weight was lifted. There was so much joy that existed in going through that process from start to finish. And that was creative play, and I loved that.

Pat Miller: 09:10

When you're doing the creative play and this darker side comes out, anyone that spends time with you would not anticipate that. You seem to be very joyful and conversational. You always seem so happy. But when you go in the studio and these emotions come out, is that because you're more accomplished at expressing yourself in the studio than maybe verbally or why is that happening there? Because you feel safer there? Why are they coming out there? Maybe not in conversation?

Anj Olson: 09:36

Yeah, I think for sure I feel safer. One, I'm not being forced to. I'm not being forced to answer any questions. This isn't somebody asking me, how do you feel? Why do you feel that way? What's going on now? Now, I have had people see some of these images and say, what's wrong?

Pat Miller: 09:55

Yeah. Are you okay?

Anj Olson: 09:56

Yes. I've had a lot of "Are you okays?" And by the time I've done this image, I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. What are you talking about? You know, but in the studio, that is my safe space. It is me. You know, it's a self portrait. So somebody isn't taking that image. It's me being in front of the camera. But what happens is, for me, it's not about the end product. It's about that process of, you know, you take an image, you do a multiple exposure. You use fabric, you use all of these props that come in, and your only goal is to define. Define an emotion that you feel. And sometimes that emotion is simply shapes and color in your head. It doesn't have to be a word. But that process of attempting to define that emotion is therapeutic. You'll do an image, you'll pull it all together, and then you'll look at it. And you're like, huh? I can see. I feel like I'm getting closer, but I'm not there yet. But you feel a little of that weight release. And you kind of know what the next step will be because you've gotten that far. And you're like, okay, now what's next? How do I get closer to this emotion that I'm feeling? And what types of things can I bring in to help me get closer to that?

Pat Miller: 11:09

I want to talk about how you do creative play because you have a really cool method for it. But I do want to follow up with one more question that might be a little personal. You don't have to answer it if you don't want to. But when you capture a self portrait and it's technically fine, and it is what you were doing, do you sometimes not like what you see? And how do you handle that?

Anj Olson: 11:28

Yes. Oh, my gosh. There are times where I will look at an image and I'm uncomfortable. Or you can feel it in your gut or your heart where you're like, oh, my gosh. Or you're surprised. You didn't know that that existed. And you see that and you're like, oh, my, is that something I need to explore further? And I think in the beginning, honestly, that would be an image I would shelf. I would put it away because it's making me uncomfortable. I don't want to see that. And I'm going to share something that's a little more personal. But it was after I had my son, one of the things that happened–I know this happens to a lot of women, but it was a very strong ab separation. It was something where my body was not mine anymore, and I ended up photographing. There were shots where you could see where, you know, some of that C-section had happened and things like that, and I could not look at that. I didn't realize how much was held there, but those were images I could not look at. But what that showed me was that this is something deeper. This is something you need to explore further. Maybe not now, and it's okay that you're not ready, but it's similar, I think, to when you are with someone or with a therapist or something, and a subject gets brought up, that's too painful. And it's a, okay, I hear you. We'll revisit that later. And that's kind of the conversation that happens in my head. You're not ready for that, but let's make sure that it is available for you to come back to and that you can see the growth in yourself from this moment to the next. And maybe when you get to this point, you'll be ready to take one step closer to that feeling that you're feeling.

Pat Miller: 13:08

I appreciate you sharing that because I think it's great to have the conversation that being in the studio where you feel safe is where you can explore all of who you are, not just who you show to the world. Because a conversation like this, we're having a bunch of conversations on creative play. Oh, you can improve your lighting technique and your framing and your whatever. But to have a conversation that's so personal. I think you helped a lot of people by sharing.

Anj Olson: 13:31

I hope so.

Pat Miller: 13:32

Yeah. It's really great. Let's talk about how you do it because you're very intentional about creative play. So share your process and how you go about doing it.

Anj Olson: 13:41

Okay. So like I'd said before, when I first entered into creative play, it was a response. Yes, it was an intentional response, but some of it was not. I did not know where it was going. It has evolved into, let's be more intentional. Let's find a way to bring creative play into your life when you are not feeling these extreme emotions. How do you creative play if there's not always something going on? How do you have creative play when you're content? Because my creative play did exist a lot in hard emotions or negative emotions. So some of the things I've started doing are give yourself a creative challenge. I kind of wanted to get into Fridays. Just, that is my creative play time. That is going to be a habit that sticks. But sometimes it's as simple as going into your kitchen or going into your studio storage closet or whatever and grabbing an item and then thinking of a word. Maybe it's an emotion, maybe it's a charge, like something you want to bring into your life. Maybe it's–who knows? But you have a word, you have an object. How do you bring that into an emotional message? How do you make that into creative play? And of course, we're using lighting and color harmony choices and all that, and you get to explore all of that and have an intentional time to bring that creative play to life. And that's really hard. It is much harder than I thought it was. When you have these hard emotions, it's very easy to be like I am full of this. I need to get this out. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. But when you're in the studio and you have this word and you know, a colander or something, like, where does that end up? And there's a bit of just it's like writer's block. And I think my goal is to have creative play become an avenue or a pathway to bigger things. You know, how does that open up an artistic, creative side of you that never existed? So you're kind of just growing as an artist with every time that you choose to enter into creative play.

Pat Miller: 15:58

You're using a very focused word or a very focused intention and then creative playing with it as it. Which seems to me almost the opposite of what I would have expected. Creative play means no boundaries. I get to do whatever I want, whereas you're giving an objective and a focus and doing whatever you want provided it's that.

Anj Olson: 16:17

Yes.

Pat Miller: 16:18

Like, it's almost restrictive, yet creative at the same time.

Anj Olson: 16:21

Yeah.

Pat Miller: 16:22

Not being a photographer, that is not what I would have expected.

Anj Olson: 16:27

Right. I think I used this word before, but I think it goes back to scaffolding and that perfectionist side of me. That scaffolding allows me to think bigger. It allows me to open up to places I didn't think I could get to or maybe were inaccessible. But it's almost like you have these boundaries. Boundaries are important. Creativity does not always mean just freedom to do whatever you want. It means you have been given these parameters. Now what do you do? How do you be creative with that? And you're right. I think everybody approaches this completely differently. Some people might see this as a terrible way to be creative. And I think when people are thinking of creative play, I think you need to take a hard look at who you are and what makes you able to let go, what allows you to be more creative, what allows you to think outside of who you are with getting uncomfortable, but also not getting so uncomfortable that you're paralyzed. And that's something that I think has always been hard because there are no rules to how you are creative. And especially with self portraiture, you really have to dig into who am I, why do I operate this way, how do I feed who I am, how uncomfortable can I get? And how do I know when it's too far and when it's not far enough? Because you should not. I mean, creativity in my mind, and what really drove me towards this a little bit more was that I was realizing that my self portraits were getting safe. I was kind of doing this creative play in a way that–I don't know how to say this in a way that doesn't sound vain–but I wanted to look good in my self portraits.

Pat Miller: 18:29

Sure. That's normal. That's not vain. That makes sense. I want to look good.

Anj Olson: 18:34

That is normal. But I think when you start to worry about what you look like in a self-portrait, when it's obviously when it's not a headshot or something that you need, you know, that's different. But when you're engaging in creative play and you're more worried about how you look than entering into that emotional space of growth as an artist, you're never going to reach where you want to go. And honestly, I think post-children, I had a lot of body issues, so it was really hard to navigate that. Like, it doesn't matter what you look like. It's okay for it to matter what you look like. But realizing that there's that cusp of you're caring too much about this, you're never going to get here. And that was again, an interesting, you know, something to enter from a creative play standpoint.

Pat Miller: 19:24

Yeah. It sounds like you're adding some judgment to the work after you're done, which is something else I wouldn't have expected.

Anj Olson: 19:29

Yeah.

Pat Miller: 19:29

Creative play, I would think, is shoot it, get what you can from it, and who cares what the results are?

Anj Olson: 19:35

Absolutely.

Pat Miller: 19:36

But it sounds like you're doing some evaluation after the fact.

Anj Olson: 19:37

Yes. And that evaluation, I think, was hard. Like, it was not helpful in that process. So I think when you first enter. I should be clear. In my case, I'm entering into creative play from a self-portrait standpoint. So with that kind of entrance, I think there is an aspect of you're going to bump into I might not like this. And we kind of touched on this before, but I think when it's simply a I don't like how I look, that's different than not allowing yourself to go further because you want to look good. Those are two different boundaries for me. And when the message that is being shared cannot be shared because you have reached that boundary. It all feels so introspective. And honestly, it does go back to therapeutic. My husband, especially during COVID, and with three boys at that point, I think they were six, four, and two–

Pat Miller: 20:44

Oh, boy.

Anj Olson: 20:45

–and we did not have the locked door yet.

Pat Miller: 20:48

Pre-locked door.

Anj Olson: 20:49

Pre-locked door. He would often watch me and see the emotion I was in. He would hand me a whiskey and say, "Go to the studio–

Pat Miller: 20:57

That's a good husband.

Anj Olson: 20:58

Yeah. "Go to the studio. Come back when you're ready". And he knew, I think before I knew, that creative play was something that was therapeutic for me. And it is something that can enter into your client work and things like that, because you start to really be more aware of how a person is feeling and how you can empathize with them in that moment, how you can tether to their emotion in a way that allows you to photograph them deeper. I now know what it feels like to feel uncomfortable in this way. I know what it means to push that boundary. And I can be with a client and think, are you ready to push that boundary or not? And you can recognize if they're not, and that's okay. But I think they can also feel that you recognize that. So there's something about just being in that space and entering into realms that are uncomfortable, that allow you to photograph your clients in a deeper, beautiful way.

Pat Miller: 21:57

Well, it's the difference between being sympathetic and empathetic.

Anj Olson: 22:00

Exactly.

Pat Miller: 22:01

You see that they're having a problem, but you can't relate. Or I know that face because I felt that way too. And you've talked yourself through it. Now you can talk them through it at the same time.

Anj Olson: 22:11

Absolutely.

Pat Miller: 22:13

Would that also allow you and empower you to push them more because you know what it feels like?

Anj Olson: 22:17

Yes, sometimes. And I think specifically in that realm, it allows you to have a conversation about the actual problem and understand that it maybe can't be fixed with posing. And that it's a little bit cold to attempt to fix it with posing. Because you're watching this human being and you're realizing, oh, they're scared because of this, or they're uncomfortable because of this. And maybe you don't know why they're uncomfortable, but you can say it feels as though there's something here that you're not comfortable with. Would you like to talk about it? And it's an opening, and if they don't want to again, that's fine. But you do realize that you cannot fix things simply with lighting, simply with posing. It has to be a relationship and a conversation that lets them know I see you. In the same way that creative play in these self-portraits is letting myself say to me, I see you. Are you okay? How can I help? It is a conversation with myself, and creative play can do that.

Pat Miller: 23:22

It's way more personal and therapeutic, as you mentioned, than I've heard other people talk about it. I really appreciate you sharing all that. It's not just the product of the shot or actually getting the image or not. What kind of creative play goes into setup, concepts, post-production? Can you talk about everything but the image when it comes to you in creative play?

Anj Olson: 23:43

Yeah. So for talking more about setup and all that, I think it starts first with, how are you feeling? And what types of colors interact with that? Once I've gone through that process, it's what types of props would add into that. Do I want to add anything in? Do I want fabrics? Do I want this? Do I want that? When it gets to post-processing, it's a lot of, what in this image? How can I enhance the message in this image? Often that means layering. That means multiple exposures. I'm not a huge Photoshop person from a standpoint of compositing because I think for me, in that process, it takes away from the authenticity of the emotion that's existing. A100% know that that is not every photographer, every artist. But for me, I prefer to do as much as possible in camera. And that is where–like I said before, the multiple exposure comes in–playing with movement. I love movement. I think it's something. That's something that's been incorporated into client work a lot because it's hard to stay still. And from that end as well, sometimes the lack of movement is part of the message. But there's a lot to think about with, how do you light an image when you're feeling this emotion? What type of light speaks to that? What type of backdrop speaks to that? What type of props and all that can be added in to help with that? And sometimes, if you're a person that doesn't engage in creative play, a lot of. I truly do think it helps to do the simplest, simplest message and start with a small thing and attempt to bring that story to life. And once you've accomplished that, you go a little further out. It's like the ripples. You know, in a pond. You throw a stone, and you start with that first little ripple, and then that opens up the opportunity for you to play a little bit more. You know, like that crack in the door.

Pat Miller: 25:47

Yeah. Doors open. Here we go.

Anj Olson: 25:50

Yeah.

Pat Miller: 25:50

You mentioned being able to coach or pose your clients when you are understanding and relating with their emotion? Can you think of another technique or another method that you used in your personal creative play that you took to your creative work? I didn't realize I can do this. Now, I can do this for my clients. Can you think of anything else that transferred from your personal creative play to the client work that you did?

Anj Olson: 26:13

I'm trying to think of all of my self-portrait endeavors because the main things that I started with were truly using my own body, using the movement from low to high, looking away, looking back, attempting to, you know, when I'm with my clients, I don't want them to feel like they're posing. So a lot of the time it's, can you walk through the scene? Can you do this? How do you feel when you do this? Can you try it down here? Can you try this? But that aspect of continual movement, I think, allows a client to relax, to tap into things, to be still, but also to feel unposed in a way that doesn't make a lot of–that they don't have to think, think so much about it. Self-portraits in general, or that creative play has really been helpful with branding photography just because that is the point of a branding story. You know, you're trying to tell this person's story. So being able to bring in, you know, color, some of their own props, things like that, has been incredibly helpful. Asking them questions beyond just, you know, from that initial process. What types of questions do I ask myself when I am preparing for a self-portrait? It's asking my clients those same questions. You know, what is, what is most important to you? Why do you feel that way when you envision this? What is your end goal? What makes you uncomfortable and why? What brings you joy? You know, these are all questions that don't necessarily pertain to photography. As in, they're not answering, what color do you want? What frame do you want? This or that? But they are answering questions about this individual as a whole.

Pat Miller: 28:20

As someone that's searching for yourself in your creative play. What does it feel like when you get someone like you really capture who they are and they see themselves?

Anj Olson: 28:29

Oh, my God.

Pat Miller: 28:30

How does that hit you emotionally?

Anj Olson: 28:30

It is thrilling. It feels as though–I don't even know if I can put into words what that feels like. That is an excellent question. There's joy. There's contentment. You feel like you have reached a deeper level with a client. It's winning in the best way. Honestly, like, it is a high five to yourself. You know, you've done this. But also, you look at this individual and there's this moment of thank you for being who you are. Thank you for letting me see you in that way. The thing I love is their face when they see themselves and they're like, that is me. That is the most satisfying feeling. That is the reason I do what I do, you know, and it's the same when a mom sees her child and maybe that image isn't that perfect, you know, they're smiling at the camera, whatever, but she sees an image and she's like, "Oh, my gosh, that is my child." I want people to look at their own images and think, that is who I am. And that's kind of what creative play and self portraiture has done. As I look at myself and my goal is that my clients can have that same moment of, oh, my gosh, I see myself, and that is a beautiful gift. I love that.

Pat Miller: 29:55

If we were to put your creative play methodology into four or five bullet points, you're very clear about what you do and how you do it. Recap it for us so we can go be cool like you.

Anj Olson: 30:05

Well, one, thank you for calling me cool.

Pat Miller: 30:07

Of course.

Anj Olson: 30:08

You're right. I am. Yes. One, I think I'm going to start which is the first kind of few things we talked about therapy. You cannot go wrong being introspective. And by that, I do not mean, you know, self-serving. So,I don't mean that. I mean just sit and be with yourself and think about who you are, who you want to be, what needs to be explored emotion-wise. If you have hard things in your life, explore it. Now, creative plays specifically, I know, doesn't exist only in the realm of self-portraiture. And in that moment, you're being brave, you know? So choose ways to be brave. Make yourself uncomfortable. Pick what your boundaries are if needed. My boundaries aren't your boundaries. So figure out what boundaries can be set in place to help you be more creative. Give yourself challenges. Challenge is the best way to be creative in my mind. Choose weird things. You know, be weird.

Pat Miller: 31:09

Be weirder.

Anj Olson: 31:10

Yes, be weirder. And if somebody's like, what are you doing? That's even better. Tell them exactly what you're doing. You're challenging yourself. You're being creative. You're playing, you know, go play. Think about the things that you did as a child just to have fun. I'm sure they were weird.

Anj Olson: 31:28

Not you specifically, Pat.

Pat Miller: 31:30

Maybe.

Anj Olson: 31:30

I mean, I don't know. We don't have to talk–this is not about you.

Pat Miller: 31:32

Not my therapy. No, not today.

Anj Olson: 31:34

Not today. Yeah, but just think about who you were as a child and think about how you explored and how you played and bring that into your adult life. I don't think enough adults know how to play. And everyone says to adult. I don't think we should adult. I don't love it up here. Let's just go back to–

Pat Miller: 31:56

Can we go back?

Anj Olson: 31:56

–playtime. Yes. Figure out what play means to you and understand that it's okay if it's not what people think play is. It's okay if it's a little darker or if it's different, or if it's something that people don't associate with you. That's okay. It's a part of you, and you're exploring it. And that is so incredibly amazing. I don't even know if I answered your question.

Pat Miller: 32:21

You got it. You gave us what we needed. We're going to take Fridays. We're going to have an objective, and we're going to see what happens.

Anj Olson: 32:28

Exactly. And then show the world. Because I want to see exactly what everyone is doing for play. Yes. Do set aside time. If it's not Friday, set aside two hours where your one job is to play. And if it's not photography, do something else. Paint, go on a hike, find pretty things. Just do something that allows you to play creatively and enhances your artistry, whatever that is.

Pat Miller: 32:59

Refreshing conversation on creative play. Anj Olson, thanks for coming on the podcast.

Anj Olson: 33:03

Thank you so much. This was wonderful.

Pat Miller: 33:05

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of The Professional Photographer podcast. This has been the deep dive on industry trends. It's been a lot of fun. I hope you've enjoyed it. Now we're going to gauge whether or not you enjoyed it. Because if you didn't enjoy it, don't click like and subscribe. But you did enjoy it, right? So you're going to click like and subscribe, right? And you're going to leave us a comment and tell us what you liked about our guest today. That helps us and the team kind of know if we're doing the right stuff or if we need to go get a job at Dunkin' Donuts or something like that. So please leave us a comment, like, and subscribe to the YouTube channel. Also, if you're not a member of PPA, we need to have a real conversation because if you're trying to build a photography business, PPA is for you. We're talking top notch equipment insurance. We're also talking about education, this show and so much more is made possible by PPA. So if you like getting better at photography, PPA is there for you as well. Not to mention the sense of community with photographers that are all trying to get better and build their business. At PPA, you belong here. Register now and sign up for the group ppa.com. That's ppa.com. Thanks for tuning in to The Professional Photographer Pßßßodcast. I'm Pat Miller. We'll see you right here next time. Take care.