Industry Trends Series with David Drum

Pat Miller: 00:00

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. Welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast. I'm your host, Pat Miller, and this is a special episode. Why? Because we're live. Imaging USA 2025 in Dallas presented by Sony, and I'm gonna go on and on about their gear here in just a minute. They have totally hooked us up. But we're doing a deep dive on industry trends today, and we have a great guest. David Drum is on the show, and he's with H&H ColorLab. And what's so cool about them is they have this entire ecosystem that photographers get to go on from first point of sale all the way through technology and the communities. They are deeply invested in your success. And we're gonna talk today about the trends that they're seeing. We're gonna talk about the wedding gap. We're gonna talk about isolation. We're gonna talk about talking and getting to know your competitors and how that can help you grow. We're gonna talk about pricing. We're gonna talk about everything. He has so much to share and I think you're really going to enjoy the episode. Now let's gush about Sony for a second. They have brought their cinema line cameras here today. They're working great and the app that we're using, the Monitor & Control app is making this wireless and seamless. It's so easy. I could do it. So it's fantastic and a big thanks to Sony for their help today. Alright. Industry trends, David Drum standing by. Let's welcome him on the show right now. David, welcome to the show. How are you today?

David Drum: 01:31

I'm doing great. How are you?

Pat Miller: 01:33

I'm great. We've got to sit here, and we get to talk to so many inspirational people. We did a whole day on Creative Play yesterday. Today we get to talk all about industry trends and you have a front row seat at H&H Color Labs. So you come at it from a different perspective. Tell us how H&H is different than everybody else.

David Drum: 01:51

Yeah. I think there's two things. I think to speak to your first point, I think one of the privileges that we have in the industry is that we work with thousands of photographers, businesses across the country in all 50 states and some in Canada. And so we get to see their business over decades, seeing the trends in the industry, what parts of the country, certain style trends are popular, what's happening with individual businesses, their struggles. Because we don't just engage on selling product like a traditional lab. We're unique that way, and that there's really three parts of our business. It is product manufacturing, and we work really hard to create and manufacture products that are different than what the consumer can get. They're professional grade, number one. Number two, the style, how different the details are in the products. They're elevated products that the consumer can't get that are only accessible to the professional. So it's that side of manufacturing. It's also community and education. So we've been very active in providing education of the best customers that are getting results in the industry, putting them in a position to teach boot camps and classes on the web in person, and then, of course, sponsorships at Imaging USA and other shows like this. So the second is community and education and the communities of masterminds that come out of those relationships. And then the third is technology and software. So it's ecommerce platforms. It's workflow software. And so it's really our view of the entire value stream is what we call it from booking the business all the way through delivering to clients and rebooking more business on the other side. So it's those conversations with individual professionals across the country that gives us, as you say, a front row seat into what those trends are across the whole country. And so, we love that. We feel it's a responsibility to use that information and apply it for the benefit of the professional and tend to be stewards, really, of the industry alongside of PPA and other organizations for the health of the industry.

Pat Miller: 03:51

With that diversity of value that you bring, it strikes me that you're using words like relationship and an ongoing conversation with the photographers that you get to work with. Obviously, it's on purpose, but how does that come to life day to day inside H&H?

David Drum: 04:07

It's really hard to do. At the scale that we're operating, it's challenging, but it's truthfully the only way we know how to operate, that when we're given the opportunity to have a relationship with that studio and they'll engage with us, then we can help on more than just how do I order an 8 x 10 on styrene? Right? It's you're really solving business problems and providing counsel to these small business owners. And what's really fun for our customer service people who are really the front line of that advice and that counsel is having them come to places like ImagingUSA and then our mastermind groups and sitting amongst these proven professionals at round tables and discussing, solving certain problems about how to book more business, about how to manage employees, or how to outsource things, or what technologies to use, and just see our customer service people absorbing all that information so they sound like masters. And when all they've been doing is just learning from the best practices of some of the best photographers in the country. So it's the day to day of that is when someone calls us and asks, you know, hey, how do I order this? And we can ask that second-level question about, well, tell me what problem you're trying to solve. And then we get to engage in that second-level conversation either on the phone or at one of our education events.

Pat Miller: 05:27

That sounds easy to have someone come in and feel like that's out of scope, though, that we're here to sell stuff. Why are we investing so much time and energy in building relationships and teaching? But it sounds like it's super valuable.

David Drum: 05:39

It's 100%–it could be considered out of scope. And I would say if we were a traditional corporation, probably a board of directors would tell us it's out of scope. What are you doing? You're wasting a lot of resource. Honestly, it's an expression of who our family is. We believe in what we're doing, that it's not just a business. It's a mission. And in carrying out that mission, we need to engage at a higher level. So it's really just—I don't know if it's a smart business decision–it's who we are. And so, it just is a part of the people that we hire. We hire for heart, for integrity. We hire for teachability, and people who are interested, really keenly interested in the industry, and we can train everything else.

Pat Miller: 06:23

Yeah. From first contact all the way through technology and education, you do have this front row seat of the industry trends, and that's why I wanted to make sure we got you on this show. You mentioned the wedding gap is one of the ones that you're seeing. So if someone hasn't heard much about the wedding gap, what is it, why is it such a big deal, and what are you observing?

David Drum: 06:42

I think the big question, really as we talk to our customers, there's many categories. But to maybe oversimplify it, there's really two categories of photographers' experience in 2024. One would be the business that is doing well. They have momentum. They've diversified a few, across a few areas of photography, or they've done a particularly good job the last few years connecting with clients and building momentum. They did not feel the dip in 2024. There's a handful of people in that category, and I would say if you're in that category, you know, fantastic. That's great. That's not the norm. The norm has been that 2024 was a hard year for photographers. And we believe that there's a general decline, let's say, in weddings because of people getting married later, people getting married less. And that trend is a very small trend over time. 2024 experienced something different. A lot of people were experiencing a double digit decrease in their business. And so that was earlier in the year, maybe end of 2023 through 2024. And so when we took a step back and started researching what's going on here, is this something we've hit an inflection point that we need to be very worried about? Or is there something else going on? In other words, does this change the new normal or is this a small short-term dip that will return to some level to that slight decrease that we were seeing? And we believe that the least part of the story is a–of all the things, we all like to stop talking about COVID–but there are realities of that, when you look at the bell curve of when people meet versus when they get married, that there's a three- to five-year window for the peak of from when people meet until they get married. Well, what happened three to five years ago? People were not meeting. So they might have been meeting online, but they weren't meeting in person. So it stands to reason, and some of the other industries, like the jewelry business, the wedding venue business, were reporting some of the same trends only in a different wave. So the ring business was first, the wedding venue second, photographers third, labs would be fourth. So we saw that kind of ripple through and so we believe that some of what explained what happened in 2024 was that dip in the number of people getting married then wedding photographers we were talking to were then booking some portrait sessions to fill in their calendar, but were largely not selling products because what they wanted was a short-term cash flow into their business without a long-term obligation of delivering product. So they took some quick hits of cash flow that was then taking business away from portrait photographers. So it wasn't just about weddings that actually influenced portrait, we believe. So our hope and our counsel to our customers has been, don't interpret this as you're doing something wrong. Continue to listen to your clients. Continue to gauge your community. Continue marketing going. Don't abandon your healthy business model for heaven's sakes. Keep the business model that's solid. Just keep the wheels on the bus in 2024 because we're hearing that 2025 is starting to bounce back. And so if the industry-wide group of professional photographers who are communicating with their actions and how they sell that this is how professional photography is sold and delivered, If we can keep steady on that, then we can probably continue to have a healthy business in 2025 and beyond.

Pat Miller: 10:14

One thing that happens when a small business owner starts to see a decline in bookings or a decline in revenue, panic sets in. And that often leads to slashing of prices. In your loving relationship way, how do you communicate with people to be like, guys, gals, come on, you can't do that.

David Drum: 10:32

Yeah. I think the first thing is just starting with if you see something happening that you can't explain, we're built to want to come up with a story to explain it. And I think it's just a trend of humans, certainly creatives and photographers, is to think I'm doing something wrong. And because I'm the only person in my business that can make a change, I need to make a change. And so the first thing is saying, hey, there might be another explanation for this that might be you're not connecting or, you know, consumers just don't appreciate professional photography anymore. These are the phrases that we hear, and they say, hey, there might be another explanation. So it's starting with telling that story of, say, we think this might be going on, and they go, oh okay, maybe there is another explanation. They still have to decide what to do, but then it's saying, okay, if that might be true and we think it is, then what's a healthy way of responding to what's happening? And it might be just tightening the belt for that year and being conservative with what you're spending. You're doing your best to hustle and go get some more jobs, but then really holding steady. And usually once people hear that, that kinda settles out. Some people still say, "Nope, I've gotta make some changes, and I'm gonna change my business model." And that is what it is. That's why it's an independent business. Right? They have to make their own decisions.

Pat Miller: 11:51

Well, this is why you're in such a unique position. People start to panic. People start to worry. And when creatives or small business owners in general, they feel like it's them. Yes. But having a community around them to admit I'm having a problem. Because if you look at YouTube, if you look at Instagram, every other photographer is perfect and nice-smelling and beautiful and never has a bad day, but I suck.

David Drum: 12:14

I'm so glad you said that. That is, I would say, there are so many beautiful advantages of social media, of free postingvideos to YouTube, but this goes back again to how we are built. How are we built? We wanna be thought well of. We wanna be respected. And when that's the first priority and I think publicly, it's always gonna be the first priority. Right? But if you can have a smaller group of trusted friends that you can be in a mastermind or a, you know, some of the best photography, healthiest photography markets in the country are when there's a community or a city where all of the professional photographers have mutual respect, they don't undercut or undermine each other, but they actually collaborate together to own that market. I think Columbus, Ohio historically has had an incredible, strong professional photography market. Atlanta just has an incredible group of people that get along and help each other in their business. And if they don't specialize in something or they're busy, they recommend a friend of theirs that does it. And what that builds is a trust, or in our case, we're intentional about putting communities together amongst our customers. And a lot of them are competitors in the same market who all use H&H ColorLab. And we will put them together on round tables to discuss certain topics to where they can be real. They can say, "Man, I'm struggling right now. I'm having trouble booking business. What are you experiencing?" And I think it's as important to share what's not working as well as what is working. Because we spend more time in our life, I think, things not working well. So if someone can say I tried this and it didn't work, oh, my word, that can save you so much time and energy. But usually what's accompanied with that is, but if I were to do it again, I would try this. And so that kind of idea sharing, and that transparency to say, "Hey, I know I post that my life is perfect on social media. But really, I'm struggling right now." It reinforces the fact that this is a lonely business. When you are a photographer, when you are a business creative, you have to wear all the hats, and no one in your life understands.

Pat Miller: 14:29

Nobody.

David Drum: 14:30

Even spouses, a lot of times, don't understand how hard this business is and yet what opportunity there is. They say, "Oh, that's cute. You have your little photography business." And you just wanna rage because you're like, do you realize I just got these three multi-thousand dollar sales from this time. You're not getting it. Other photographers do. And I think that is a huge opportunity in our industry to continue to nurture those trusted groups of peers that are, photographing the same type of work because the way that you photograph and sell for babies is different than families, is different than schools, is different than preschools, is different than varsity sports. We have to talk very specifically about the type of photography and what your specific goals are for that time of your life. Because we all have this lifelong wave that we get and that where you are when you're 25 years old and you're getting married or not married is very different than when you've got kids that are teenagers and your priorities are different, your goals are different. And if we can be that kind of transparent about where you are now, what kind of photography you're doing, and what your goals are for the next two to three years, that's really what, as a company, we're focusing our team on asking those kinds of questions. Then we compare people together, and they can see that someone else is on that same journey in that point of their life, and we can put together the best practices to take those next steps. And that is when you can have that kind of transparency and that kind of sharing, it is magic.

Pat Miller: 16:01

A friend of mine challenged me the other day. She said, "I want you to think of the most successful person in your industry. Call them and ask how they're doing. Don't ask how their business is, ask how they're doing."

David Drum: 16:13

Oh, wow.

Pat Miller: 16:14

She told the story of doing that, and the person that she reached out to broke down in tears. Because everyone thinks they've got it figured out, but no one understands how they're really doing.

David Drum: 16:22

Yes.

Pat Miller: 16:23

You also mentioned, I've heard you say before, that cities can develop as a team in a way, and you've seen that. You mentioned some of the cities that have it going on. If a city doesn't have it going on, if you feel isolated in your market, is it as simple as just calling one of your competitors and getting lunch? I mean, what would you recommend?

David Drum: 16:42

It really depends on the personalities and I think the mindset of the people. You know, I think one of the terms that's pretty common right now is scarcity mindset versus–I forget the term for the opposite of scarcity–but it's the fact that there is plenty of business to go around and that the industry is at the level it is because of the photographer's willingness to go out and ask for the business. I believe that in my soul that every vendor here at the show, every photography business, is hinging on the photographer asking for the business. And if you believe that me asking for the business is taking it from someone else or someone else asking for the business is taking it from me, you're not going to share. You're going to say no. I have to protect what's mine because I have to look out for my interests. And there is an element of looking out for your interests. Let's not be naive. But I also think when you can find a group of people–it's not gonna be everyone–but find a group of people and put your toe in the water and start with coffee. Start with lunch and ask the question, how are you doing? And being willing to, if they're interested, share your version of, yeah, this is what I'm struggling with too, and this is what I feel like is holding me back. What do you see? And you can start that dialogue one on one, and it has to be the owners that do that. And if you can start that and then invite a few more people in, it takes time to build trust in any relationship. It takes time to spend that you're dedicating to that. But honestly, I think there is so much potential for our industry if we can continue to build, and there's great examples of it. We can continue to do that. And I would say 20 years ago, we had that in strong state associations. And I think the state associations have become much weaker over that time for many reasons. That's all maybe another whole conversation.

Pat Miller: 18:37

Another podcast episode.

David Drum: 18:38

Right. But I think today's version of that is possible, and it would be very healthy if we continue to nurture that.

Pat Miller: 18:45

Yeah. I find that the most successful, most talented people that are true masters are the ones that are most comfortable talking with competitors and opening up with their expertise.

David Drum: 18:55

Absolutely.

Pat Miller: 18:56

When someone's really guarded and really protective, they're the ones that fake it. They haven't made it yet. That's what I find over and over again.

David Drum: 19:04

Yes, I think that's true. And life is too short to have to learn everything on your own. And so, if you can, we all–you know, there's so many mentors and teachers who are selling coaching and all those things, and that's wonderful. If you really have mentors and teachers who are selling coaching and all those things, and that's wonderful. If you really have someone who is capable of doing that, really capable, not just a salesperson, but they've made the journey, they're making the journey, and they're willing to share that, that's wonderful. That is a very valuable role. We work with a number of people do that. But I think peers is just as important if we can be candid about where we are, what type of photography, where we're going next, what's working, what's not working. It's magic.

Pat Miller: 19:39

We're talking trends. Another trend that you're a fan of is not only measuring average sale and the industry's obsessive obsession with the average sale number is the success metric. I know that's just like, you know, throwing a hand grenade and letting you go. So, talk to us about the average sale as the barometric measure of the industry.

David Drum: 19:59

Look, it's an easy thing to chase. I think there's so many risks of that being the thing that we celebrate alone is the average sale because it doesn't talk at all about profitability. It doesn't talk about scale. To be able to live your life, support your family, support employees if you have them. It speaks nothing to that. I can have an average senior sale of $15,000. And if I do two a year, then you have a really cool hobby. That's it. That's all you have. And I'm sorry if I'm offending someone, but you're not supporting a business or family. And if it's a side hustle, got it. You have your job. You can do a couple sessions a year and, like, more power to you. But be transparent that that's what you're doing. Otherwise, you're hurting people, and that's what gets me fired up, is if we don't tell the rest of the story and we don't give context about what our situation is and what we're trying to accomplish, then that average sale and me teaching someone how to accomplish that when it's a different scale than what someone else is doing. It's wrong. It's morally wrong, and we have to stop that. But I think if we can change the conversation, we are huge fans of, again, where are you in your life? What are your goals for this next two to three years? What are you photographing? Start with that. Then saying, how do I get to the scale? If it's operating a side hustle, be clear about that, that's what I'm doing. I wanna supplement my income. Great. Rock on. The way that you would carry out your business is gonna be different than someone who's trying to run a full-time business to support their family. Neither is morally wrong. And I think sometimes that's the other tension is that the business models are different, and it can feel like one business model is undermining the other because my goals are different. They're both legitimate goals. It's just you're gonna connect with different clients. So if we can shift the conversation to scale that supports your goals and sales per person photographed. So you talk about the number of people you're photographing and the sales per person photographed. Now all of a sudden you can start talking about total revenue, total profit. We can talk about the cost of goods from the labs. We can talk about the percentage of labor. But these are boring conversations to creatives. And yet, if there's only a few principles that are really needed for the creative to really start wrapping their head around what it takes to run a business where you get to keep doing what you love to do because you're making an honorable profit. And so shifting from average sale to how many sessions, and people get uncomfortable when you start say, well, I only do 10 sessions, and all of a sudden people will dismiss me. Maybe. So what? Are you reaching your goals? What's important to you? That's what matters. Then find people who have similar goals, and you'll find an incredible group of people that you can learn from.

Pat Miller: 22:49

And that's the purpose of this show. There are plenty of shows on the web to talk to photographers about how to make better images. I'm trying to get after the business of running a business and putting profit in your pocket. Because if you wanna be a professional photographer full-time, we have to have those conversations about serving the client that results in sales and running a studio that results in profit. And you know what? If you're doing $2,500 sales and you're making your goals, good for you. Just because it's not a 5-figure sale doesn't mean it's good or worse than other folks are doing. o we could go off on that for a long time.

David Drum: 23:24

Let me say one piece to that has really made the light come on in people's eyes and they are like, "Wow. I didn't even think about this." If you do the math–and I'd encourage every single person to do the math–that if you do, if you compare, let's say, a school photography business to a senior portrait business. So do the math on $30 per kid times photographing one subject every 45 seconds or every minute. Make the math easy, every minut, and then 80% buy rate. So, you know, times .8 x 3 hours in the morning. That's the math. Add it up to how many dollars of sales per hour. Now look at a $3,000 sale on a senior times two hours of photography plus the post production. Guess what? They're very similar businesses. And yet people think that, "Oh, how can I possibly sell seniors for $3,000 a piece and then photograph underclass for $30 a piece? Like, that's a brand violation." It's not. Some people do operate two brands, but the money's the same. Because of the quantity you're turning in that time. And by the way, you can still give an incredible quality of photography, incredible client experience in doing that short session versus the two-hour session. And so when we can compare those side by side, most types of photography is $1,000 to $4,000 per hour of photography. And that's healthy business. If you can line that up every couple of weeks throughout the year or every week throughout the year, you've got an incredible business. And being able to break it down that way, to be able to respect the people that are photographing underclass schools and respect the people that are doing weddings and portraits for what they're doing and with the sales it generates per hour, I think it just changes the mutual respect for each other and it helps us see opportunities where we're dismissive of it before.

Pat Miller: 25:19

Not to mention if you do volume correctly, you're meeting with a high school sophomore before they need you next summer–

David Drum: 25:25

Absolutely.

Pat Miller: 25:26

–where they're seeing your photos, and you wanna talk about people that are fired up. I've had the chance to talk to Jason Marino and some other volume photographers. Man, they are breathing fire about how important volume photography is and how many people don't get it and judge it. And they're over there just printing money. They're like, "Guys, you don't get it. You need to be doing volume."

David Drum: 25:44

It's true. And we believe a community's photographer should be involved in many types of photography for that community. There are people who specialize. I respect that. That's one way of doing it. But when you have some diversity in your business, lots of really incredible things can happen. And what, kind of wrapping back around to your point about people coming to Imaging USA and the education that they get versus online, I think that is where all those different viewpoints can surprise you. That you aren't going to because you're searching on YouTube for the same subject every day, and the algorithm feeds back to you more information about what you're interested in. What the algorithm will not do is surprise you. And that's what going to in-person education and events like this will do, is you get to talk to Jason Marino. You get to talk to a high end senior photographer and you go, "You know what? I'm gonna pop in on something. I probably won't do this." And all of a sudden, they say something to you and you're like, are you kidding me? I had no idea. And this opens up an entire new opportunity for you that you and your tunnel vision of just seeing the world of the algorithm feeding to you what you're interested in, you get to be surprised. And I think I grieve deeply for the number of people in the photographic industry who are not coming to in-person shows because they're robbing themselves of being surprised by things that can really help them in their lives.

Pat Miller: 27:12

Yeah. You're noticing some generational shifts in that regard.

David Drum: 27:15

Absolutely. I mean, let's think about it. I look at my son in his twenties or I've been interviewing a number of 30-something-year-old photographers lately. And their entire lives, they have had multi-billion dollar companies focus on how to feed them information they're interested in. So you search for one thing. You pause on an image for a second longer than something else. This database is being built of what I'm interested in, and that's great. It's very efficient, but it doesn't allow you–and so you can see the convenience and the ease and how comfortable you feel in that world and say, "Yeah, but if I go to Imaging USA or some other trade show or education event, I might not get what I'm looking for." And I would say exactly. That's why you go, because you're gonna get things you weren't looking for, you didn't even know to ask. And you're gonna stumble across people that you build an in-person relationship with that are gonna change your life. And that's a piece I think we have a risk right now. As an industry, we have a risk that we all need to be generating online content, social media content. But if all that does is feed a narrower view of the world, a narrower view of the opportunities, then we will find our industry shrinks. Because it's the interaction of things that you don't expect, that you don't search for, that are the things that, in my experience, can add a fork to your life's choices that you didn't even know was there.

Pat Miller: 28:45

My day job is building small business communities. And when you bring a community of people together, they like to use the phrase like-minded people. I hate the phrase like-minded people because to your point. I wanna be around people in the same situation, but I don't want like-minded people because I don't need to hear what I already know.

David Drum: 29:02

There it is.

Pat Miller: 29:03

I need to hear something I never considered because talent borrows and genius steals. Right? You meet someone and they say something. I can use that and then it changes the way you do something, and for that regard, I hate that phrase.

David Drum: 29:16

You know, I think it, though, makes people feel comfortable.

Pat Miller: 29:19

It does.

David Drum: 29:20

Initially.

Pat Miller: 29:19

Yes.

David Drum: 29:20

But very quickly, the culture has to be led to be we're gonna be at our best when we're actually hearing from people we have very different ideas, and we get to sharpen that with mutual respect and assuming the best intent of the other person is not to hurt me, not to make me feel uncomfortable, but guess what? Feeling uncomfortable is probably a good thing. And, boy, if we can get together and have enough trust that we can battle it out a little bit, I think we're all gonna be better.

Pat Miller: 29:47

I love this conversation because we just didn't talk about wall art and the trends of things that your company is printing and selling. We've gone all over the place, which has been great. Is there anything else as a trend that you've seen that you want to make sure that we hit on that we haven't talked about yet?

David Drum: 30:01

Yeah. I think in those conversations of diversity of thought, diversity of business models, and yet finding those common elements that really make things work. Some common elements that really make things work, we still firmly believe because of all the examples, is that a healthy business that you can support your family, if that is your goal is to support your family, then selling products changes the conversation from the service of photography to helping decorate the home. And I believe a whole another conversation for another day.

Pat Miller: 30:32

Another episode.

David Drum: 30:33

Transformation of the people, transformation of clients. That's what we're trying to do. That's what we believe the photographer can do for families and kids, of photographing people is helping that little seed of transformation that can start during the photography session, and then providing printed work not just because we're a lab because we see how it changes people's lives. And not just the photographer's life, but the person who's buying that artwork for their home, putting it on the wall, telling the story in an album, and delivering product that is different than what that client can get. It reinforces the entire brand of the photographer, elevates the industry, and that artwork is sitting there and every person that comes over to the house is saying, oh, my gosh. That is gorgeous. Who took that picture? Who provided that album for you? This is beautiful. And those little conversations are the word-of-mouth that we take for granted. And if it's just digital files, I'm sorry. It's not a good business upfront because you're capped on your sale. There's only so much you can sell for that, and it doesn't provide. Once it's below the news feed, it's gone. And it doesn't provide that long-term stickiness of people asking about that incredible image on the wall or sitting on the coffee table that gives you that word-of-mouth marketing. And when all that can come together and we can walk alongside of independent professionals to show that what we do is special, is unique, and talking that entire value stream, that we're making their lives better through workflow software, through many ways of marketing and communicating with our clients and with products that are different than what the consumer can get, then we're at our best, the photographer's at their best, and the industry grows.

Pat Miller: 32:10

Love the conversation, David Drum. Thanks for coming on the show.

David Drum: 32:13

Thank you very much. Appreciate you.

Pat Miller: 32:14

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of The Professional Photographer Podcast. This has been the deep dive on industry trends. It's been a lot of fun. I hope you've enjoyed it. Now, we're gonna gauge whether or not you enjoyed it because if you didn't enjoy it, don't click like and subscribe. But you did enjoy it, right? So you're going to click like and subscribe. Right? And you're gonna leave us a comment and tell us what you liked about our guest today. That helps us and the team kinda know if we're doing the right stuff or if we need to go get a job at Dunkin Donuts or something like that. So please leave us a comment, like, and subscribe to the YouTube channel. Also, if you're not a member of PPA, we need to have a real conversation. Because if you're trying to build a photography business, PPA is for you. We're talking top-notch equipment insurance. We're also talking about education. This show and so much more is made possible by PPA. So if you like getting better at photography, PPA is there for you as well. Not to mention the sense of community with photographers that are all trying to get better and build their business. At PPA, you belong here. Register now and sign up for the group, ppa.com. That's ppa.com. Thanks for tuning in to The Professional Photographer Podcast. I'm Pat Miller. We'll see you right here next time. Take care.