Sell Photography Like a Pro: In-Person Sales Tips to Maximize Every Session

Pat Miller: 00:00

I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. You just took a great session. You feel like a million bucks. Now it's time to make a million bucks. And I know you could use some help with your sales. Today, we're talking about in-person sales with Luci Dumas. How do you start the conversations? What do you do at shoots to make sure that you're taking care of the in person sales session while the camera is still in your hand? How do you handle common objectives? What do you do when they ask for the digitals? All of those things are gonna be answered on today's episode. So if you are really good at taking the pictures, but could use some help selling the pictures, this episode is for you. Luci Dumas is standing by. We'll talk to her next. Luci Dumas, welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast. How are you today?

Luci Dumas: 01:02

I am so good. I'm just loving spring. Flowers are popping. The weather's nice. I know people think in San Diego, it's always nice, but I do own sweaters and a jacket.

Pat Miller: 01:13

Isn't that cute? I live in Wisconsin and it won't be spring until like July. I like that.

Luci Dumas: 01:18

Isn't that cute?

Pat Miller: 01:19

Isn't that cute? Yes. We have one winter and then sometimes like a few weeks of summer and that's about it. But instead of talking about the weather, let's make some people some money. If someone hasn't met you yet or hasn't seen your show, The Profitable Photographer, tell us who you are and what you do.

Luci Dumas: 01:35

Well, hello, everyone out there in PPA land. I have been in this business for over forty years. I started with weddings for the first ten and then children. I was the baby whisperer, and it morphed into more family pictures, more outdoors on location. I'm a person that loves actual natural light, not the, huh, I don't know how to use extra light, so I'm just gonna use natural. I love to find the light. And then about 10 ago, I got this calling from on high, wherever it comes from, that it was time for me to officially coach people and help people. I've always been someone that's if I learn something, I wanna share it. I've always been someone very intuitive. And then six years ago, I started a podcast to support that education. So that's me. I live in a cute older house in a historic part of San Diego.

Pat Miller: 02:32

When you took all of that experience and started helping people, that's a passion project. At least that's how it starts out. But now that you've been doing it for a while, what excites you about helping people win?

Luci Dumas: 02:43

I'm the kind of person that if something good happens to somebody else, it feels like it's happening to me. So when I see clients, like, I have a client coaching client who lives in San Diego, so I get to follow her career eternally. Well, maybe not that long. And seeing her in a year and a half have $5,000 averages doing pet photography when she started with a dream and another full-time job, it's just so gratifying. And I stand on the shoulders of giants in this industry. So to be able to pass it forward is I just love it. Did that answer your question?

Pat Miller: 03:23

Oh, absolutely. That's what it's all about is doing what we love. And we are gonna make some people some money when we get into the IPS system in a minute. But you said something the first time that we talked that I thought was really cool. You said there's a curious outcome of running a great sales system. You say it makes you a better photographer. I thought that was really unique. Can you explain how that happens?

Luci Dumas: 03:44

Sure. So I always encourage people to sit. You know, I'm the queen of in-person sales. If this is on video, you can see my projector back here, and I have a seven foot movie screen. And when I sit with my clients and I hear their reactions, they laugh, they cry. I see which ones they buy. I see which ones are like, that's okay. So that helps me understand what to do again. And also seeing it big on my own shows me my work, shows me where I excelled, shows me where I could do better. Whereas if we're looking on our computer, it's very different. It's not as emotional, and it's also not as clear about, "Oh, yeah, there's a tree sticking out of that head. Oh, I like how the light just wraps around that subject."

Pat Miller: 04:34

Some people think they're either a salesperson or they're not a salesperson, but you can coach people on in-person sales, give them a few tweaks, and you've seen tangible results seeing people. You talked about the pet photographer, but with a little bit of coaching, it's realistic to think that we could raise our rates and raise our revenue by 25, 50 percent or more?

Luci Dumas: 04:56

Absolutely, 100% yes to your answer and way more than a 100% if someone is doing, like, a $300 to $500 shoot and share model with the right clients when we're reaching out to people who would appreciate what we do. And we share the value and we develop a relationship. I call it the trusted advisor relationship. And we have just simple techniques, simple systems in place. You can easily take that 300 to 3,000. So what's the math on that?

Pat Miller: 05:30

That's a lot more sense.

Luci Dumas: 05:32

Yeah, you have to be willing to make friends. You have to be willing to be of service. We have to be willing to spend more time. We have to get out of the fear that we're being salesy and just lean into a system.

Pat Miller: 05:42

And let's dig into that system. So let's walk through it. Where does your IPS system begin?

Luci Dumas: 05:47

It starts on the phone. If I could only have two tools, a cell phone–well, actually, just one because I could probably sell my cell phone photos. The cameras are so good now. But getting on the telephone, starting that relationship, planting seeds for eventual purchase of wall art, that's where it starts to me. That connection and kind of like if you're trying to grow tomatoes, making sure the soil is good for grown tomato. Things like that. So, yeah. It starts there. And then the next step is to get together in person as much as possible and show them my work, keep building that relationship, and implanting more of those seeds, getting them to understand the value of the investment. I just had Allison Tyler Jones on my podcast a couple of weeks ago, and we talked about pricing for value. So that's where that all comes in. First, they have to understand the value.

Pat Miller: 06:47

On that first call and in those initial conversations, you're showing them your work so they can build the confidence that they're gonna look that good too, but you're also showing off the products you're gonna end up selling them. Can you show us how that works a little bit?

Luci Dumas: 07:00

So my studio is set up in case anybody wonders, like, how would I set up a sales room easily? I have four nice looking office chairs. If I was buying new ones, there's a lot more that look like a home rather than a business. I have a small round table. The initial consultation, we sit around the table. For the sales, I move it to the back of the room like a little theater. And so I'm sitting at my round table with them, and we're talking about art. I'm finding out about their home, and I've asked them to bring photographs in of their walls, of their decor. And so, I start saying things like, oh, you know, I see that everything's very ultra modern, and you've got black and white and gray. So maybe we'd wanna do black and white. And this location downtown would be very cool. And I think over that fireplace or over that sofa, something great would be perfect. And then I'll point to, like, this size here, that is a good size to go over one of the spaces that we're talking about. So I reference different sizes, and I show them on my price list what the investment might be for them. So they start thinking in that direction. Now I have to page back to it honestly really starts with getting qualified leads. But then the first conversation starts to weed out people who are just not somebody that's going to value what we do or can afford it. There are four kinds of people. Those that will love what we do and they can afford it. Those that love what we do but they honestly cannot find the money to invest. Those that have all the money they need but they don't value what we do, and those that don't value, don't afford it. So we're looking for those ideal potential clients. We need to fish in the right pond. And we also need to have good branding because if someone sees, like, a really outdated web page and logo design, and it's not really clear what makes us special, then we've got a harder hill to climb.

Pat Miller: 09:10

When you have those initial discovery conversations with the client, what are some of the questions that you're using to determine if they are an ideal client and if they are the perfect fit, and the other ones you can kind of bless and release and move on to somebody else?

Luci Dumas: 09:24

Some of it is a gut feeling, but I start out, I've got I think six or seven-point strategies on a phone call. So the first one is just a friendly icebreaker. "Hey, how are you? Oh, my gosh. I love I love this. I love your name." Just something friendly and warm. And then I start asking them about their family, who they want photographed, and then I get deeper into, tell me about the relationship. So your kids, do they love to play together? What do they do together? If you're watching your children when daddy comes home, describe that scene to me. So I put them like a fly in the corner of the wall, seeing their life and falling in love and getting really clear about the subjects. So I try to stay emotional as much as possible. And then I tell them a little about how I work, and then I give them–and I get this from Charles Lewis. I learned this thirty plus years ago and a phrase that has seriously I don't know if I could count up the dollars from this sentence–but I float an initial price, and I say, most people invest a minimum of, and, to me, I've found with working with coaching clients, initially, if it's in the $500 or $600 range, that weeds out the people that are just wanting everything for nothing, but it doesn't scare off potentially great clients. So if someone's like, "Oh, yeah. Sure. That's workable. Then I know a $2000, $3000, $5000, $10,000 sale is potential. Does that make sense?

Pat Miller: 10:59

Yeah. Absolutely. Kinda sets the floor of their frame of reference for what you're gonna ask from them later.

Luci Dumas: 11:06

Right. So that just gets them committed enough to then be able to get together for the consultation. And depending on their reactions and more conversation, a lot of times, I have to handle some objections. If they say, "Well, I just want all the digital files." I do a little questioning, you know, what do you want them for so that I can share with them either, no, it's not the most affordable way to work with me, or, printing on your own, is very different than having me use the best labs in the country and print on archivals and put my complete artist expertise into the end product, things like that. So that's part of the conversation. What I'm careful not to do is to get in the weeds about money and numbers. Don't get super–what is it? Left-brained on that because then they start their calculator, and then they're comparing us to others. And if they've done some search online, and then they're telling, frequently, it's the husband, the pricing, and he's like, "Oh, this other person's cheaper. Let's go there." I just don't wanna give them the materials to do financial comparisons. I want them to come in, get excited, see my work, meet them, form that connection because we're really selling ourselves. We're not like, "Oh, I need," like a car salesman. Well, a good car salesman is going to ask about your needs, care about you, share their expertise. And if it's the car for you and you like that person, then you buy the car from them. So any salesman is actually in a place of service. I had a podcast episode talking about searching for a purse and the difference in the coach purse store versus department stores and the level of connection and interest and listening to what what works for me, what I'm looking for, and giving me suggestions. It's just classic. If I needed a salesperson, I would hire someone from the coach purse store because they've been really well trained. And it doesn't feel pushy or icky.

Pat Miller: 13:13

Do you think if more people realized that great sales is service, just answering the questions and doing the discovery with your client, they'd feel less icky about the whole process?

Luci Dumas: 13:22

Oh, absolutely. The people that I work with have the step by step process, and then they just do it. In fact, usually, I have the initial best success with someone that's never done it at all. And so they just follow the strategy, step one, step two, and so forth. It works for them effortlessly. And the other thing is when you show the work large, it kind of sells itself if you don't interfere and you don't overwhelm them. If you have a system for how this plays out and how you get to decisions, then there's just so much power. Even if you change nothing else but just show it big in person, it has so much impact. Back in the olden days, when we had our proofing could be on slide film and we had the old-fashioned carousels, so many people would be selling with paper proofs. And someone would say, "Hey, try this projector. Go ahead and buy it. And if it doesn't make your money back, you can return it. Keep the receipt." And every time, it was like, my sales are doubled. My sales are tripled. And people that have been doing it a long, long time, but never showed it big. So there's just power. I mean, the difference between going to the movies to see a film and watching it on TV–my TV's over there–is literally literally huge.

Pat Miller: 14:47

I've heard you say that you're especially passionate about not teaching people to sell digitals, that selling digitals is something you're against. Can you talk about why that is?

Luci Dumas: 14:57

So first of all, I think the reason I am doing portrait photography for people is so that, first of all, they have a wonderful experience. They pass these on to their family members. They enjoy them every day. Their life feels different every day. There's a portrait of my family that I have here in the background. Every single day that my eye falls that I get a connection. I remember ten years ago when my niece was kind of a bratty kid that had her hair colored two different weird tones, and now she's this beautiful mother. So I feel like an obligation to make sure the work is printed and printed right. So it's less about the money because I could probably get 3000 or 4000 of digitals if that was my intention, and I marketed to the right people. But I feel like it's a service to help them help themselves by letting me do the work. That's my artistry. So the question again was–

Pat Miller: 16:03

Not selling digitals.

Luci Dumas: 16:04

–not selling digitals. Now some people do like, you get a digital with everything you purchase, which can be great if they purchase enough that you're not going to be losing money. But when you're not selling the prints and they purchase the–sorry, like, bottom line for us is you can't make as much money for the most part. The $20,000 sale is not something I could imagine doing maybe with weddings if you get in the right niche. $20,000 sale of physical products is just more doable. So it helps them. It helps our bank account, and it makes it a richer experience. And we get to spend time with each other. And it's a lonely world out there. And so, for people to be able to have a relationship with a cool photographer that is interested in them, that builds a relationship, that in itself is a gift, in my opinion.

Pat Miller: 17:05

We talked about the initial conversation. We talked about showing them stuff before the shoot. Are you doing anything during the shoot with the in person sales activity in mind or anything that you're thinking about while you're shooting that sets up a bigger payoff when you sit down to sell the images?

Luci Dumas: 17:20

Absolutely. So I'm big on offering variety. And so when I plan my sessions, I'm thinking about the location and the way the light moves and where we're gonna be at each stage. And let's say with a family portrait, I'm gonna make sure I have two or three very different family portraits scene, and then I'm gonna work each one. So I've got close-ups. I've got just full body. I've got scenery if it's not in a studio or a tight location. And then I'm going to do breakout groups. So the kids, flowing kids together, fun things, running, jumping. And then when I move to the next spot, I do a series there, and I'm always working on getting the most out of every session. I sometimes see photographers at the beach. We, of course, have a lot of beach portraits here. They show up after I've already been working for a while. They click, click, click, and then they're gone. And I'm still there, and I'm still excited about the sweet light that if the clouds are right and , you know, the stars align, I get that beautiful sweet light. And, you know, they've already just moved on. And that might work for them. They may have $5,000 sales with that. But to me, more is more. And the other thing I often knew is if there's a scene that I really love, I'll get super excited, and I might have them look through the lens, not the back of the kit camera, but through the lens to see what I'm seeing. And I might be like, oh, everything's perfect. This might be great for over that couch. And the other thing I do is make sure they understand the way they're gonna see these is in my studio projected, and that's the time they're gonna order, so they have to be prepared for all of that. So I'm always making sure they understand because if they go home and they haven't completed the sale, if they have to come back, they're starting all over. But they've already edited down, so now they're gonna edit down more. So those are some of the things. I do a lot of images that I know are are going to be the ones that most people will love, but then I'm always pushing my own creativity so that I can come up with, like, something I've never thought of before. I love that. As a PPA master, I don't enter anymore, but I'm always thinking as I'm trying to get a merit print. Yeah. So that's some of that.

Pat Miller: 19:46

So we've taken the shoot. We're now back at the studio. We're ready to do the big in person sales session. You share with us projecting it on a giant screen. You shared with us the strategy of not going after a digital's only kinda sale. What are some other things that you think people get wrong when it comes to an in-person sales session? Maybe it's common wisdom that you don't follow or something that you teach everyone to do that's an absolute golden rule to help sell more stuff.

Luci Dumas: 20:12

K. Great question. First of all, learning to handle those objections and staying in that leadership role, especially at the sale, is super important. It's very common. When can I order more later? You know, can I get the digitals? But there's a handful of common things. And each objection, first, I ask them why, so that I know that when I respond, I'm responding to their question. But they've already, now at this point, trusted me. So if I say, you know, no, this is the time we're ordering and here's why, then they're more apt to go, "Oh, okay. I get it." Or if they say, I'm feeling overwhelmed, then I can say, you know, I have this step by step system. So just say yes, no, or maybe as we go along, and they will narrow down and then we'll categorize them. And I make it really easy for you to fall in love with the images that are the most powerful for you. I pay attention to your reactions. So just buckle up and join the ride, and I promise you we'll get there. The other part of your question, I would say is what people can get wrong is they don't have a system. So they sit down, they show the work, then maybe they do one little edit pass, and then they say, what do you think? What do you want from here? Now some people, like, just had Allison Tyler Jones in San Diego and in her studio, she's got a system and she's already pre-sold certain images. For me, it's more general because I'm out there in the wild woods and beaches and hills and dales, and I don't know exactly what they're gonna love. So we narrow down. And then when we get to the ones that they like–and this is something that was a game changer for me–is we separate into potential wall, small, or album photographs. I'm always saying highest potential. We're not ordering, highest potential. And then I have a slideshow that I run through twice of the wall potential. And I say, now I want you to notice which ones give you a warm feeling or which ones touch your heart or whatever adjective I'm looking for at the time. Because and this is my little golden phrase. Because if you order these as art in your home, you're gonna have that feeling every day for the rest of your life when your eye falls on there. And that's like, ding, ding, ding. When I added that and I run through it twice, I put it to music again. There might be 15 in there, possibly more. And it also helps me because I watch my emotional reactions to them too. So if we're, like, down to, you know, a couple and they're like, "Which one for the fireplace?" I've noticed which one has grabbed me, and I've heard their reactions as well. So I can be a better guide. Now you do ask a question about talking about design and craft and all of that. That's a point where I might say, you know, look how this one besides all the things that you love because you're the mother, this is your family, I've got the lead line here that takes you up here and moves you around to your family, and then this hand brings you back in. So I talk as an artist at certain points, and that helps them with, first of all, the confidence, but then making those selections and having the experience of having curated art of themselves or their family or their puppy.

Pat Miller: 23:48

We've gotta have puppy pictures. I mean, come on. Why even have a puppy if you don't have puppy pictures? I mean, let's go Okay. So the system is gonna help people make more money. And one of the ways that you teach it is the create the business of your dream strategy session. Who is that for?

Luci Dumas: 24:02

So, you and I talked about this. I'm offering 10 Create The Business of Your Dream strategy sessions for the listeners–and you don't get 10–10 people can say yes and get in touch with me. And it's a deep dive into your vision, your dreams, and most people don't have it super concrete. So we get, like, details, color, studio, who's your clients, all kinds of specific things. So it's like we've painted this–I guess this is a crystal ball, not a paint. Okay, we've sculpted your dream, and then we talk about some of the things that are slowing us down or stopping us. And then we kind of revisit, how great it will feel when this comes to pass, and then I can help people think about what their next step might be. So for some people, they might say, "Hey, Luci. I'd love to have you as a coach." You know, my joy is taking people from wherever they are to getting them on the solid path to where we've determined in that strategy session that they wanna go. And, you know, then I get all my joy of watching people grow and change and make a profit and have their lives more like what they want. So I think I think that answered your question.

Pat Miller: 25:22

Absolutely. So tell us about the profitable photographer. Where's the best place to catch the show?

Luci Dumas: 25:26

So it's The Profitable Photographer with Luci Dumas, and lucidumascoaching.com. Luci with an I is the website, and there's a link there for everything. I'm on YouTube and also all the places, Spotify, Apple, and so forth. I've celebrated my three hundredth episode. Woo hoo! And, oh my gosh. I've chatted with, like, 220 brilliant people, mostly photographers, and I've, like, scooped up everything I could think of to do about 70 episodes that I'm amazed at all the things I can come up with after forty years in the biz. I guess I do have some things to share. So lucidumascoaching, luci@lucidumas.com, Luci with an I is how to find me, or just come on by. Come to San Diego. Say you're here.

Pat Miller: 26:18

Now you're talking. That's something that we'll take you up on. Luci, thanks for joining us on The Professional Photographer Podcast. I appreciate it.

Luci Dumas: 26:26

You're very welcome. It's just such a joy.

Pat Miller: 26:28

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of The Professional Photographer Podcast. Now you need to do me a solid. Come on. You gotta do me a favor. Hit like and leave us a comment. And if you hit subscribe too, like, we're gonna be best friends. But leave us a comment. That's the most important thing. We need to know what you're getting out of watching the show. Because when we know what you love, we can do more of it. So leave us a comment and tell us what stuck that'll help us make better shows in the future. The other thing is if you're not yet a member of Professional Photographers of America, you're missing out. PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in a sustainable and profitable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership at ppa.com. That's ppa.com. Thanks for tuning in. I'm Pat Miller, the Founder of the Small Business Owners Community and the publisher of the Small Business Summary newsletter. It's pretty great. You might wanna check it out. We'll be right back here real soon with another episode of The Professional Photographer Podcast. Take care.